Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines |
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dafrca
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Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines  Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 6:21 am |
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Tas & Primarch,
I can not and will not try and defend his point of view. I just was trying to explain why it would work better as a no armed "marker" because of the desires of the rules. 
Fact is, I argued for split fire and I thought we should use the Gargant List and the AMTL list as conduits to introduce the ATII he spoke of doing. Sad to say he did not accept the split fire and later he did not want to have complex Titan rules.
So from my point of view it became a case of accepting what was and working within that to make the rules and lists the best they could be.
dafrca
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Tas
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Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 6:54 am |
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I can not and will not try and defend his point of view. I just was trying to explain why it would work better as a no armed "marker" because of the desires of the rules. |
Understood, acknowledged and appreciated.
Its good to hear how these things evolved from an "insider's view". I had no doubt that you represented the view of 90% of the players here.
Maybe what is needed are some "Advanced EA" rules for purists like us...
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dafrca
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Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 7:03 am |
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| Quote (Tas @ 29 2005 June,22:54) | | Maybe what is needed are some "Advanced EA" rules for purists like us... |
Agreed. We even tried to get them to think about the ATII rules that have been spoken about. Those would have much more "refined" rules for Titans and their "add ons".
As the rules wrok now, I could model the Recon Land Speeder onto the Titan or not have one at all. The Carapace Landing Pad is what you are buying. The Recon Land Speeder as a mini is not even needed on the table. In point of fact, in this version of the game, the Recon Land Speeder is not even a real ?Unit? at all.
And do not even get me started on the whole Weapons variations issue. 
dafrca
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Tas
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Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 7:08 am |
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I can imagine that the whole issue would hve been very frustrating for you, trying to preserve the glory days of detal vs the dumbing down of the rules for a new and less-informed audience
(who wont BECOME informed because of the lack of support to EA, but thats a seperate issue altogether...)
All I can say is that I appreciate you representing us and thanks for your time in doing so 
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:08 pm |
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Well it would be an easy fix ... "War Engines can split fire on more than one unit/target ..." 
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nealhunt
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Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:50 pm |
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There are many issues with splitting fire, mostly related to the BM rules. It probably could have been worked out, but it adds a lot of complexity (at least with respect ot rules verbage and potential FAQs) and would also allow an increased amount of min-maxing with ranged fire that is arguably not justified.
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As far as the CLP, it's not just one speeder unit that allows the titan to fire indirect.
First, it would be silly to only have 1 spotter when the platform could easily support multiple craft.
Second, the upgrade would have to include all the additional tracking and computation components for indirect fire, so having the "dedicated" spotter(s) destroyed might hamper optimal operation but it could still be done in the same manner as ordinary artillery.
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:52 pm |
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Good points, Neal !
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Dwarf Supreme
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Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 5:08 pm |
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| Quote (primarch @ 30 2005 June,02:56) | | Quote (dafrca @ 29 2005 June,21:37) | | Quote (primarch @ 29 2005 June,17:07) | Hi!
Since its a command unit under netepic it has many advantages, but it IS a valid target to be shot at and destroyed.
Primarch |
Again, my bad Primarch, I should have slowed down and been clearer in my answer. The point is, the Land Speeder is not the "Unit" in the Formation of One. It is the Titan. If we make the Land Speeder a full "Unit" then we make it a Formation of two, the Titan and it's one weapon (the Land Speeder).
As Jervis had instructed me when I was Champion (and if that has changed then I will drop this) we did not want to have "parts" of the Titan targeted and we did not allow the Titan to split fire because it was one unit. The Landspeeder in this case is a physical representation of the ability that this weapon replacement gives. It should not be targetable any more then the leg, arm, or other weapon is.
dafrca |
Hi!
..than again I dont understand or accept the premise of epic A of not splitting fire between different targets.
I consider that to be a design "cop out". ?
Primarch |
I agree 100% with you, P. I think it is silly not to allow a machine bristling with weapons to fire them at mutiple tar gets.
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dafrca
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Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 5:12 pm |
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This also points out one of the differences I saw in the Playtest forum.
Some people wanted to write rules and then fit fluff/minis to the rules. Some wanted to write Fluff and look at minis to figure out how the rules should go.
One of my favorite examples of this was the debate over the secondary weapon for Knights. Some wanted many weapons, others just a few. A couple of arguments I saw were things like:
?But the mini I have has two other small barrels on the left, so it needs more guns??
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?But there is not a need for those extra weapons, it makes the unit too unbalanced.?
or
?But the fluff says the X weapon can melt stone, so it needs to be a MegaWeapon?
Different starting points caused a lot of mixed final stances.
dafrca
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nealhunt
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Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 6:42 pm |
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Yep. It's always a trade off between "realism" (in this case, with respect to the background) and overall play quality.
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Dwarf Supreme
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Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 7:06 pm |
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| Quote (Tas @ 30 2005 June,04:21) | Not to be an old fuddy duddy, because I think the general EA rules are very good...
The old Titan rules were far superior. ?The specific targeting rules, differing armour on differing locations, trying to target specific bits, etc was fantastic. ?I dont thnk it slowed down the game much, a few minutes at most maybe, but the extra level of detail was excellent and appreciated by the player I knew.
Whist I can accept that for rank and file players, the generic veriosn is OK, I want - no, NEED - a return to the detailed style version which meshes with EA nicely: an Adeptus Titanicus III if you will, so that that I can have the detail if I want...because I do. |
I have to echo this sentiment. While I do see the current rules for titans an improvement over E40k, the old rules were superior, in my opinion. With my titans, I want to be able to fire at multiple targets; I want to be able to hit specific locations on the enemy's vile titans. ; I want to be able to use all of the old weapons; I want to field a psy-titan (ok this is a HUGE wish since I didn't even own one, but I'd like to be able to buy one from the archives!). Perhaps the best solution would be advanced rules for veterans that fit in nicely with the E:A rules. Am I wishing for too much? 
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Grimshawl
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Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 8:02 pm |
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It all sounds great to me, I too love the old rules, I have simply run low on local players still using the old rules, I like alot about the new rules/ epic A, but it so far has lacked the Majesty of the full Titan Legions box/ rules. Thats one of the reasons I got involved with the AMTLs list playtesting to begin with, to try to recapture the spirit of the older titan rules and all the glory of the titans. the AMTLs list has been alot about compromise and trying to work the older stuff into the new rules set, anyway I'm with you, titans are what originally got me totally hooked on tabletop warfare and the 40k background.
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nealhunt
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Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 8:12 pm |
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For the record, I have noted several times on the playtest boards that I have serious doubts that it will ever be possible to accurately balance Titan Legion and Gargant Mob lists against the more traditional armies.
I think that more detailed ATIII-style rules that meshed with the current system would be the ideal for playing with WE-heavy forces.
For games involving primarily traditional armies, though, the WE rules add enough detail for variation while remaining smooth enough to maintain relatively sleek game play.
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