How is Steel Legion list, which is in the print rulebook and all, not "Imperial Guard" enough?

That sounds like complaining that you can't buy Imperial Guard models in 40k... only Cadians and Catachans (if that).

You see, a horse is an animal, an animal isn't (necessarily) a horse.

Also, if that is Steel Legion, why is formations without transport allowed?

And yes, I can't by Imperial Guard in 40k today. Only Catachan Imperial Guard, or Cadian Imperial Guard. But that's less of a problem there, as I can still us ethem to build my Imperial Guard.

Gee, another grumpy night... *Sic!*

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It would be nice to get lightspeed,
so far we can only reach slight speed.- Erik M
092b85658e746a91d343e53509d357744e56f641

I see Erik's point in this. I feel it is in a way pandering to GW's 40K trends. I think lists are good in that they allow these types of armies (as it should be) but I do not understand why there is no all inclusive list for all the units. I must be missing some of the key reasons but I have heard others on the threads say that all inclusive lists do not work for some reason. Can anyone get me up to speed on that one?


I also think Erik's point about Credibility is more of an urgent issue. Do others feel this way?

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

I'll echo Warhead and Erik's sentiments. I feel the same way about the Eldar as Erik does about the IG. I've always played them and will always play them, but now I can't really play them. I have to play a specialty list.

Don't get me wrong, I like the special lists and think that they have a lot of background and flavor, but I would really prefer to play a "Codex" style Eldar army.

I think lists are good in that they allow these types of armies (as it should be) but I do not understand why there is no all inclusive list for all the units. I must be missing some of the key reasons but I have heard others on the threads say that all inclusive lists do not work for some reason. Can anyone get me up to speed on that one?

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-Malakai

"You'll never understand how much watching other people's pain gets me off, hearing their screams and knowing that I have the power of a god." -Velvet Acid Christ

The army lists are only for use with the Grand Tournament scenario (designed especially for tournament play as the name suggests).

It is also ideal for pick-up games against unknown,new or regular opponents to help give a balanced game (even if players have never played each other before).This is one reason for the limited type of army lists that are seen in Epic A.

If you own the rule book you should have read the design notes that state players are encouraged to change anything they want to suit their own gaming group.This includes Army lists even for the GT scenario.

You can produce any Army list you want with as much(full codex with every conceivable unit or formation in it) as little (Only 1 type of formation allowed,say Tacticals for a marine list) if that's what you want.You only have to get your opponents permission to use it not GW's or anyone here.

If you all know what type of list/codex you want then just produce it for your on use it doesn't have to have an official stamp here or anywhere.I personally prefer the more limited official list (BIEL-TAN/STEEL LEGION/GHAZGKHULL MAG URUK THRAKA’S
WAR HORDE etc.)

To me these type of lists suit the games design of being large scale battles set in either a certain war zone (Armageddon/Baran etc.) or between certain armies (BIEL-TAN/STEEL LEGION/GHAZGKHULL MAG URUK THRAKA’S WAR HORDE etc.)

They are supposedly easier to balance this way,although armies such as BIEL-TAN have now taken over 6 years to get to where they are now (some still don't think they are finished). How many years is it going to take to get a list that includes everything available in varying formation sizes and most things also available as upgrades.
I don't think I'd be around to see the finished article   .
We would then probably get some one come along and grumble that the lists didn't have the formations in size's/choices/ugrades agreeable with them and want to change things.

To those who want full codex list's I would say just go ahead and produce them.That's the beauty of epicA it's your game when you play it at home or with friends so you can (to quote a regular on the forum) DO WHAT WORKS FOR YOU .

What dptdexys said...  

You want all inclusive lists then do it. Maybe just use the points values for each unit from whatever list you want (using the highest if there are several listed), and stick units together into formations consisting of whatever you want.  Maybe give players an extra 10% points but have a base cost of 25 points for each formation just to help stop lists having stupid amounts of activations.

A similar approach was used by Epic40k. Worked ok and I played it for years. Frankly I don't think the approach is easier for new players because they tend to be overwhelmed by the variety and choices and not know where to start. But yes, do what works for you, give it a try and post some battle reports... hey I might even do it myself...  

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http://hordesofthings.blogspot.co.nz/

This is true, but with the absence of scenarios the only games going now are GT games.

Here's hoping that Moscovian works out something for that scenario supplement he's talking about doing!  

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-Malakai

"You'll never understand how much watching other people's pain gets me off, hearing their screams and knowing that I have the power of a god." -Velvet Acid Christ

I have every respect for the view based on the game owners design notes.
BUT
I want to be able to sell in Epic to new and old gamers.
That is not possible if the going phrase is DWWFY. Period.
I don't want to win when I feel your DWWFY-list is weak.
I don't want to loose when I feel your DWWFY-list is strong.
I want to battle on even terms. And that starts with even lists and a game owner that takes responsibility for that.

And don't give me the scenario crap. (Sorry for the french.)
Truthfully, how many play the game that way? With new players? At all?



No, it's as with playing pool, "Rack 'em up boy, let's play some pool!"

Besides, how many can handle the complexity of scenarios and campaigns?

And also, an "all inclusive" isn't the same as "anything goes".
Imperial Guard is possibly the most complex (again) army, but things like doctrines seem to work well. At least in theory and if you started immediately as that version of (40k) codex was released.

Credibility gentlemen, credibility. We are talking loads of money and work here. And also (!) how the (plastic) sprues are made up. Your basic army SHALL be what they give you.
(IG: two companies and two each squads ogryn and ratlings; Squat: one each Exo and Guard, 10 Warrior and five each of Berserker, Thunderer, Thudd, Mole, Bike, Trike and Exo Bike.)
That keep both cost and balance complexity down. And then, after that, you can start adding (and possibly subtracting).

A bit grumpy still, sorry chaps.

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It would be nice to get lightspeed,
so far we can only reach slight speed.- Erik M
092b85658e746a91d343e53509d357744e56f641

Could this be solved with a simple re-labelling? For example, we have a 'Marine' list which is essentially UltraMarines, and then variant lists from that.

If we simply called the current BielTann list 'Craftworld Eldar' with no other changes, would that help accessibility? Essentially, this doesnt change the design philosophy but assumes that BielTann is the 'default list'. The same with Steel Legion renamed as 'Imperial Guard (standard)'.

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https://www.cybershadow.ninja - A brief look into my twisted world, including wargames and beyond.
https://www.net-armageddon.org - The official NetEA (Epic Armageddon) site and resource.

Indeed it would. To have each force have a "base codex" and possibly with mandantory choices too.

If you from there want to make Siegemasters, Siam Hann, or whatever, I'd be happy to say DWWFY and happy go too!

But give us something to lean on first.

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It would be nice to get lightspeed,
so far we can only reach slight speed.- Erik M
092b85658e746a91d343e53509d357744e56f641

Having a core Codex list that all others extend from makes sense to me. Then everyone gets to chose what is best for them. If there are standard Codex lists as Cybershadow has shown then this could obviously be a very good way to go IMO.

Sorry if this all sounds like grumbling but all we're asking is to be included.

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

The Ultramarines list works fine for Codex Marines (as that's exactly what they are!  ) but the Eldar as a whole are not represented very well by the Biel-Tan list.

I've made arguments about this subject before so I won't go into it again.  

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-Malakai

"You'll never understand how much watching other people's pain gets me off, hearing their screams and knowing that I have the power of a god." -Velvet Acid Christ

The GT scenario is played almost exclusively by most but lists can still be adjusted for this if that is preferred.

There isn't a lack of alternative scenarios,in the rule book it shows how to use the cleanse scenario from 40K and with  bit of re-working this should allow all 40K scenarios to be converted.The rule book also includes the scenarios Escalating Engagement,Breakout and Ambush with hints at how to use unbalanced forces and differing  objectives and goals.

There have also been multiple scenarios in the fanatic magazines from memory these included Crossroads although these may be very hard to find with the old website no longer available.

Maybe these would be a good start for inclusion in the scenarios book.

At tournaments here in the UK most already (me included) call the lists Imperial Guard,Eldar,Chaos Marines etc. when doing their army lists so a name change wouldn't be a big thing.

I personally like the sound of all those scenario types. Very interesting. If a book is managed I'll be looking to buy.

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]