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Rune Priest Stormcaller???

 Post subject: Rune Priest Stormcaller???
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 1:02 am 
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Hi!

Well, as an issue that gets constantly brought up in regards to net epic, these are the main "taboos" that a fansite should not infringe on:

1. GW photos. Big no-no. If its from a WD, rulebook or any source they have published, no matter how old, dont use it. Infringement on this is the fastest way to draw thier attention.

2. NO scans or "copy and paste". Dont scan rulebooks, WD's etc OR copy paste them to any file format and offer them for download. OF course with file sharing this has become a moot point, but dont do it on your website.

These are the main two ones, most other stem from these.

If you take pictures of your own minis, make your own home grown rules or even similar ones, but in your own words, you are pretty much in the clear.

We have followed these to the letter and in 7 years have never been bothered by GW despite much "close scrutiny".

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 Post subject: Rune Priest Stormcaller???
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 3:16 am 
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ok, close scrutiny. . . how do u know that? did they approach you?

my point is that i wonder how much they really care, given the resources need to crack down on every site, and even deal with different laws in every country. i mean, getting an email from GW UK when u live in another country doesn't mean much. . .

i know what the laws say, but usually these laws are for enforcing and instance when I design a game using names or concepts GW has. I have seen hundreds of 40k fansites with stats and they aren't taken down. . .

look at my site primarch, i have tons of gw pics, but i use them as a way of saying "check this game out, it is awesome" not, here's a variation of an existing game i am trying to make money off of. i dont even pretend they are my images, and i am sure everyone who visits my site knows that.

I dont mean to sound so rebellious, but the whole point of fansites is sharing your favorite things about what your a fan of. the only thing it can do is create more interest for them and they aren't even paying for the advertising.

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 Post subject: Rune Priest Stormcaller???
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 11:16 am 
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OK. Reading my new WD last night, I found that the Kult of Speed list will appear in the next WD. Now, GW have stict policies on published material, and even if I were to get something accepted to Fanatic mag, I would need to take it off my own site for inclusion! Therefore, I have removed the list. My appologies to all involved.

Gandalf - Jervis simply did not want people to distribute old versions of the lists and game. This was, as far as I understand, he did not want the game judged on a version which had been improved. I can understand this as I am tired of people not wanting to even look at EA because of E40K! As neal said, I dont think that your own lists are a problem. Out of print stuff is a different beast. Stuff that will will appear in a bought pulication is a little more of a hot topic.

In general, I agree with you. Most fan sites are a way of generating interest for the hobby and are actually doing a lot to support it and generate money. The general rule is, can someone avoid giving GW money by getting stuff from the site? GW can be very heavy handed on occasion, but with this specific case (and each case should be judged individually) I can see their point.

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 Post subject: Rune Priest Stormcaller???
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 11:49 am 
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My appologies to all involved.

No apologies needed. I had my serious doubts werther or not to post the list. Reading people's comments has also convinced me that removing it is the correct thing to do. -Actually it is me who should apologize :blush:

Cheers! :)

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 Post subject: Rune Priest Stormcaller???
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 6:25 pm 
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Actually, legally Cyber, if your quote a GW publication and credit them, there is nothing wrong with it.

Writers do it all the time and that is why we learn how to do it properly in school (although I will admit I forgot!  :p )

If I took a Tom Clancy novel, and tried to reprint it and sell it as my own then that is in direct violation of copyright infringement. If I quote (Jack Ryan looked at the file and instantly recognized the Russian weapons dealer." (-,-), THAT IS NOT COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT.

Saying that in 40k, "A Vindicator may be upgraded with X for X points" (-page goes here-,-author gore here-) is not. Things are a little more informal on message boards, but done properly there nothing GW can do about mentioning certain parts of an article, so long as you are clear as to where you are getting them from, and yes, that includes point values. I love forum rules that specify no point values. . . people get so freaked out worrying about this.

I read GWs policies and thay even mentioned that they recommend not using bad language in your forum, which is an absolute joke. Freedom of speech. I can say just as much as I want in the privacy of my own home in talking about GW as I can in a forum. I know you have your own rules Cyber, but please don't be afraid that GW can actually visit your site and rule over it's contents. There are things they can do, and things they can't. It would be cheaper for them to scare everyone in believing that you can't to certain things, but truthfully they just want absolute control, which they legally can't have.

And I can understand not wanting to distribute the older copies of the game. EpicA versions that is.

Just as a side not, if you quoted white dwarf properly Cyber, then it is legal to post part of the article.

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 Post subject: Rune Priest Stormcaller???
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:12 pm 
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Quote (Gandalf the Grey @ 24 2004 Jan.,17:25)
Actually, legally Cyber, if your quote a GW publication and credit them, there is nothing wrong with it.

Not exactly true...

What you are saying is relating to fair use, and generally most websites and forums are not really in the realms of fair use (ie review and educational use).

What writers are doing is using the "quote" as part of a scholarly work, quoting an entire KOS army list from GW is not fair use and would not be seen as such in any court in the US or the UK.

Giving credit doesn't actually make it right and legal.

If I copy a CD, convert into mp3 and put it on a website (or available through peer-to-peer_ and credit the original artist, it still doesn't make it okay!

The issue with copyright and trademarks is simple, if you don't crack down everytime, then  if someone then starts to use your IP to sell something you have less chance in court to say that your IPR is being infringed, therefore GW will at every opportunity protect their copyright

Fair use also does not apply to registered trademarks, therefore though you can quote the from the rulebook you can't utilise the trademark on a website.

Just because you can do something doesn't make it okay and legal.

The netepic site was "asked" by GW to remove copies of older rule sets because it was infringing GW's IP. Just because you haven't been asked is more likely that GW are unware of your site rather than they don't mind.

I can assure you that they would take appropriate legal action if required as what you are doing is diminishing the value of their IP.

If you are unsure, write to GW and ask them if your site is okay!

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http://uk.games-workshop.com/Legal/ippolicy.htm

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 Post subject: Rune Priest Stormcaller???
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 10:38 pm 
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You see, that is just it, I kind of have a problem with asking GW for legal advice. The truth is, if I was contacted by GW (and it would have to come from GW USA not GW UK) and they said to take all of my images down, I would, and then probably replace the spaces with "I think GW sucks." That isn't slander either, that is my opinion. So sure they would be retaining their IP, but they would have lost me as a customer and my site as a way of expanding the hobby. Most of my site's visitors come looking mostly for Japanimation, but I was always thinking I was doing GW a favor by posting stuff about their game.

Well, I guess we will wait and see. To be honest I could really care less if I had to take the stuff down or not. It doesn't do anything for my ego to keep it up.

And Jimbo, I see quotes published all the time from all sorts of sources. You might be right on the whole mp3 thing (and I am not convinced file sharing is wrong), but to mention something in written form cannot be that much different than word of mouth. Can you imagine if we were in the same room and you asked me how many points for a Land Raider detachment, and I responded with, "Sorry, you'll have to buy your own rulebook."

Maybe I'll move my site to the Ukraine or Russia (hell, they are pretty cheap too) where UK and US laws wouldn't be able to touch it. It is where the server sits I believe that decides juristiction.

This whole thing is stupid though. It only hurts GW, and if their arrogance is so great, I wish I hadn't spent so much money on their products. I would be this way with any other company.

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 Post subject: Rune Priest Stormcaller???
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 11:42 pm 
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The problem you have is you are confusing the law with common sense, doesn't always work that way...

Your website may well be "advertising" the GW Hobby and bringing people in, however legally it is infringing GW IP and in order to protect their IP from serious copyright infringement (such as someone copying and selling their rules) they have to protect their IP all the time regardless of the consequences such as the GW Sucks image replacement!

but to mention something in written form cannot be that much different than word of mouth.

again common sense would say so, legally they are quite different

if you photocopied your rulebook and gave it to the friend in the example you gave then you would be infringing copyright, to speak the rules is a different case and unlikely to be infringing copyright unless it was broadcast, recorded or in a public space.

I see quotes published all the time from all sorts of sources.

Though you may see this happening, doesn't mean it is legal!

I have to deal with copyright all the time in my job (and I also have to be aware of the differences between US and UK law).

I have also been the victim of copyright infringement.

A website selling rare miniatures, used one of my photographs, without permission, to sell a miniature. The miniature was selling for $150. I did not receive a penny, even though my picture was instrumental in selling the miniature!

You may not agree with me and I know I don't agree with you, therefore we must agree to differ.

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 Post subject: Rune Priest Stormcaller???
PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2004 10:10 am 
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one other thing I forgot to add...

You can not copyright or trademark game mechanics... they in theory can be patented, but you can not copyright the actual game process!

So you can (considering you re-write and use your own words) the complete rules. So posting stats and points is in fact perfectly legal, however you can't use GW IP or Trademarks to describe those stats and points!

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 Post subject: Rune Priest Stormcaller???
PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2004 12:04 pm 
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This discussion is interesting. While it goes on, we should also remember that we are not talking about quoting a GW source, we are talking about publishing an article which has been been bought (including the copyright) by WD for a future issue here.

Anyway, I am fairly aware of the guidelines of referencing and quoting, I have to be in my job!  :D

I agree 100% with Jimbo when he says that "confusing the law with common sense, doesn't always work that way..." (Jimbo, 2004).

It would seem that we are all actually just chatting about our hobbies, bouncing ideas of each other and promoting the further participation...

In addition, there is a law that (I think) no more than 10% of a publication may be copied. And this also applies to individual articles. Therefore, stating a single rule should be OK, but more than that may be problem. I have heard stories of GW wielding the copyright law like their own personal sword, and this does not frighten me too much. There are sites that have been asked to take down artwork and they have replaced the pictures with little messages.

In addition, GW do try to maintain an image. If a site appears to be official, and advocates bad language, then they may suffer by association. They probably do want to guard against that. I doubt that they could actually make a case against it. but it would certainly lead to them examining the site carefully to see if there was anything else that they could use.

I am partially sympathetic to GW, and I try to understand their point of view and position, even though they are rumoured to use the law to their advantage on occassion (I am still very sceptical about the whole 'cant sell GW online in the states because of IP laws').

To be honest, if you sat in a room and read the 40K rulebook out to me directly, that would probably be infringing copyright. Proving it in court however would be impossible.

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 Post subject: Rune Priest Stormcaller???
PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2004 3:32 pm 
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Quote (CyberShadow @ 25 2004 Jan.,11:04)
In addition, there is a law that (I think) no more than 10% of a publication may be copied. And this also applies to individual articles.

again not strictly true... you can do if it is for private study or research and then only if you have a licence and then only if the publication is on a specific list.

In the UK you can purchase a CLA licence if you are an educational institution which allows your students to copy one chapter (or 10% of a book or journal (from a list)) for private study or research (and it must be for educational purposes). Note that this does not cover the production of teaching materials!

So you can copy articles from The Independent under the CLA licence but not from the Guardian.

Quoting 10% of an article and posting it to a web forum most certainly would not be covered by this licence!

Therefore, stating a single rule should be OK, but more than that may be problem.

Actually you can tell us all the rules considering that you don't quote verbatim from a GW publication or use GW trademarks, as you can not copyright or trademark game mechanics or facts.

I am partially sympathetic to GW, and I try to understand their point of view and position, even though they are rumoured to use the law to their advantage on occassion (I am still very sceptical about the whole 'cant sell GW online in the states because of IP laws').

Again this is a misinterpretation, the actual line was that you can't use GW pictures on your online stores, customers can still purchase GW miniatures online in the US, you just can't use their pictures in your online store (or eBay auction).

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 Post subject: Rune Priest Stormcaller???
PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2004 4:55 pm 
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Fascinating. :o

It's like walking in a minefield.

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 Post subject: Rune Priest Stormcaller???
PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2004 5:28 pm 
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IPR and copyright is a real minefield...

for example (and these are based o UK law) if you video a tv programme, you can watch it later, but you must then "wipe" the tape you are not "allowed" to keep the copy!

If you purchase a DVD or CD you have not purchased a copy of the film or album you have merely purchased a licence to view or listen to it in your own home.

Of course it is not all mines... check out Creative Commons for an interesting variant on copyright law (US only, none of the licences would hold up in a UK court of law). The white stripes example in the video makes for interesting viewing.

http://mirrors.creativecommons.org/getcreative/

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 Post subject: Rune Priest Stormcaller???
PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2004 7:10 pm 
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Nice flash movie! I love Jack White. I saw the White Stripes twice in three days last summer and they were both amazing shows. Recommend everyone go see them. It doesn't surprise me that he said ok to the Steve's revisions, he's pretty down to earth. Very smart too. Realistically, how would he stop Steve from doing what he was doing anyway? How could Jack stop me from doing it in my living room, and then playing it for my friends?

Maybe I just have a laid back approach to it all. I have had people email me for permission to use stuff that was actually mine on my website, and my response was don't even ask, just take whatever you want. I have seen images that I have scanned appear on Ebay, as well as the descriptions I made on the site posted there to EXACTLY as it is on my site. I don't care. I actually think it is funny. Flattering maybe. The point is if someone makes a cool million off something I did, good for them. I really don't care.

You mentioned filesharing. The vast majority of bands get paid $X UPFRONT, lets say $250,000 to make an album. The band uses that money for studio time, lawyers, etc etc merchandise, all usually provided by or recommended by the recording company. Once an album is released, it hurts the recording company the most, as the band has usually made all they will make unless they are contracted further, which is rare. The band's real hope for making money lies in touring, and many times if they don't draw big crowds, they rely on the sale of the merchandise at shows to keep the tour going. I have seen this all first hand so I know a little bit about it. That being said, I have ZERO sympathy for the record exes, the RIAA, or anyone else who makes big money off the bands hard work. Jack White actually produces his own stuff, as well as Whirlwind Heat, the band that opens for them, so he is actually smart about the whole process.

And $250,000 might sound like a lot of money, but truthfully, but the time it is all said in done, I have seen bands owe $10,000 or more from the merchandise they had made.

I don't really know who is to blame, the record execs who make a good deal for themselves and screw the band, or the band who is just trying to get their name out there. But I do know for sure that if you want to reward a band for the music they play, buying the CD is a tiny bit compared to seeing them on tour. I am glad file sharing is screwing the foundation of the music industry because it does need an enema. I-tunes, or whatever. . . please. You don't even need Kaza to distribute files, you can do it right in MSN Messenger! Now no one but Microsoft would actually see it if they were paying attention. I think it is great. It doesn't hurt the bands as much as it is hurting the companies, which I am totally for. I'd like to see the entire industry get rebuilt.

Well, now back to GW. If GW wasn't so hardheaded they could be everyone's favorite company. Maybe I haven't seen some examples in court where they have had to defend themselves. I remember a long time ago I bought some minis of some robots that looked a lot like terminators to use for custom mechs in Battletech, and I heard later the company got sued because they looked too much like GW's stuff. Truthfully, GW's terminators were much much better than these minis. That kind of annoyed me a little. They weren't direct copies, but you could see GW influenced the design.

Imagine if Orcs, Elves and Dwarves were copyrighted and own by one guy. Kind of lame if you ask me.

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 Post subject: Rune Priest Stormcaller???
PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2004 9:28 pm 
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Quote (Jimbo @ 25 2004 Jan.,14:32)
Quote (CyberShadow @ 25 2004 Jan.,11:04)
In addition, there is a law that (I think) no more than 10% of a publication may be copied. And this also applies to individual articles.

again not strictly true... you can do if it is for private study or research and then only if you have a licence and then only if the publication is on a specific list.

In the UK you can purchase a CLA licence if you are an educational institution which allows your students to copy one chapter (or 10% of a book or journal (from a list)) for private study or research (and it must be for educational purposes).

I forgot to add this 10% only applies to photocopying and not electronic copying for which you need a different licence.

Quoting 10% of an article and posting it to a web forum most certainly would not be covered by this licence either!

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