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Hi all, Ork list

 Post subject: Hi all, Ork list
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2004 5:35 am 
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Made it back through the snow, sleet and ice !  And no Yeti sightings ... it was too cold and they must have stayed home to watch T.V. !!!   :laugh:   I don't imagine Malta gets too cold being in the middle of the Med ! :laugh:  I figure hot and dry !  Well anyway I usually (98% of the time) use tactical/camo colors.  However I do admit they look dark in many cases, but that does not bother me.  That is the way "real" combat units look !  I guess I'm to well indoctrinated and study too much history !       :;):

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 Post subject: Hi all, Ork list
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2004 8:48 am 
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Quote (Legion 4 @ 27 2004 Jan.,04:35)
Made it back through the snow, sleet and ice ! ?And no Yeti sightings ... it was too cold and they must have stayed home to watch T.V. !!! ? :laugh: ? I don't imagine Malta gets too cold being in the middle of the Med ! :laugh: ?I figure hot and dry ! ?Well anyway I usually (98% of the time) use tactical/camo colors. ?However I do admit they look dark in many cases, but that does not bother me. ?That is the way "real" combat units look ! ?I guess I'm to well indoctrinated and study too much history ! ? ? ? :;):

Congrats on survival, L4! Re camo-oriented-indoctrination: I'm not personally indoctrinated, I usually just miss a few bolts and nuts off the top. But I like camo armies too - two problems: 1 - after so many dark models, I'm having fun painting brighter stuff, and can't stop; 2 - I'm TERRIBLE at painting any form of camo (bar one) and don't say my Eldar red-yellow substituted with e.g. greys could make a splinter pattern - I never manage to get a good balance with low tones; 3 - camo colours don't stick out in the new display case, so that would be going against wifely orders. Inconceivable!

Oh, re the one camo scheme I CAN paint: as you could guess from my poor camo-capability, it's the one used by German tank troops in Russia when things started to get hot and paint scarcer, and there was not enough time to muck about with carefully-laid out patterns etc. In the end poor Private Schmidt would have to go out in -20C (so you see, it's not just you L4) with a tin of paint and a frozen brush and apply a few hastyt streaks or just throw the paint at the tank's side. My fave is the standard sand yellow used after  - ah - 1942? with (instead of the usual red-brown and green) loads of white streaks for winter camo. I believe this was applied to the older grey base too, but prefer the white-on-sand. I built a 1/35 StugIII once in this scheme (hoping it was at some time used on the poor old Stugs). This, incidentally, is my favourite anti-tank vehicle - low, biggish gun, less flexible than a turrerted tank, but cheaper too, and still very useful. Of course the later Jagdpanther was better; but the poor (and more numerous) Stug was a nice old thing. Oh dear, am I rambling?
I desist.
Cheers.   :{
Oh - the weather (what else) - over here in winter the worst it does is creep down to around 4 degrees (over 0) at nights, but this is exceptional. Our problem is the high humidity: ten deg C here can be far colder than sub zero temps in the UK, I've found!

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 Post subject: Hi all, Ork list
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2004 10:02 pm 
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Yes, I am very familiar with those camo schemes and AFVs, too. :) ?I used model 1/87th thru 1/35th scale models, so I just took that experience to Epic ! ?The GHQ site has some great pics of those and other models, most painted in various tac/camo colors. ?Well I'm going to try to work on some Epic today. ?And it is a balmy 33 degrees F here, with the promise of more snow, ice and rain ! :(

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 Post subject: Hi all, Ork list
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:48 am 
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Hi Folks,

I was just wondering what people thought of the Eldar Ulthwe list and how they feel about playing with and against it. Is it a fair list? Is it a list you'd feel comfortable seeing at a tournament? etc etc...

Adam


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 Post subject: Hi all, Ork list
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 7:13 am 
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Tiny Tim would be good to answer here, try and track down his contact details.

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 Post subject: Hi all, Ork list
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:47 pm 
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Not only do I think it's fair, I encouraged its submission to the ERC for review and approval.  As far as I'm concerned, it's ready to go.

I am pushing Jervis to release it along with the Black Legion and L&D lists as a sort of "Eye of Terror" Epic release.

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 Post subject: Hi all, Ork list
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:30 pm 
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I have been playing with the Ulthwe list for quite some time now and yes it is a good list. It is nasty and can cause some crushing defeats on its opponents.

Having said all that it does suffer from the same problems as any Eldar list. Also the Aspects are harder to use as they are in smaller numbers. Personally I don't use Aspects that much now and leave the fighting to Guardians boosted with Wraith constructs. Its something that you can do with the current list but if they are Black Guardians then they are harder.

So I would say that it is a fair list (as far as all Eldar lists are :D ) and yes I will be taking it to tournaments and expect to see others playing with it as well.

As an aside, if the list isn't published by the time Open War 4 is run I'll be trying out my list under the BT rules. not as good but a good chance for a comparison

Tiny

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 Post subject: Hi all, Ork list
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:50 pm 
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There is one combination that I've been thinking could have a potentially devastating effect and I'm curious if anyone has used it:

Take a guardian warhost make it your Black Guardian warhost, upgrade a guardian to an additional farseer and the original farseer to a Farseer Council. Take the waveserpent upgrade and then the 4 falcon upgrade. It's very expensive but potentially destructive what with the falcon's ability to wreak havoc on vehicles and the FF ability of all units involved.

Black Guardian FOrmation:[150]
1 Farseer Council [25]
1 Farseer Upgrade [25]
6 Guardians
2 Wave serpents [200]
4 Falcons [150]

Total Units: 14
Total Cost: 550pts

Thoughts?

Adam


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 Post subject: Hi all, Ork list
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 5:09 pm 
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I think Ulthwe is a great list and it's what I'm using for my homegrown Craftworld, but I'm still of the opinion that it needs some tweaking.

That Strategy Rating 5 is still something they're getting "for free".  The biggest "abuse" I've been able to pull off with it was bumping a Marine Battle Barge's arrival into Turn 4 by declaring my Wraithship's arrival in Turn 3.  Sure, I had a 50/50 chance of doing that (well, slightly better than 50/50 as my birthday is next up *laugh*), but it was something the local Marine player had never had to contend with before.  His entire drop army was prevented from entering play as the game was easily won by Ulthwe in Turn 3 when only two units of garrisoned Devastators were available to him.  Any other army with a "slow-n-steady" ship is automatically hosed if the Ulthwe player brings a spaceship, not to mention the benefits of choosing table edges, set up order, placing teleporters, etc.  It may be "only one extra point", but I think it's significant.

Compared to Biel-Tan, Ulthwe tends to (at least in my experience) have more activations, have a Supreme Commander that doesn't have to risk getting "stuck-in" to be useful (and I'd gladly pay 50 points for a Supreme Commander with +2 MW attacks in both CC and FF, plus all the other Farseer benefits than 75 for Inspiring and +1 MW attack), has some better Guardians, and is more likely to have *nasty* Guardian Warhosts with many upgrades (my local grew is more afraid of facing a Wraith-enhanced Guardian formation than facing an Aspect Warhost).  All of this for the same point value as Biel-Tan.

Looking at the Battlestats, even though there's only been about 30 Ulthwe games posted, they've got the second highest win percentage, and they are smoking Biel-Tan (in the few games we've played Biel-Tan vs Ulthwe, Biel-Tan hasn't won yet.).  The loss of Aspect Warhosts does not seem to be enough of a "payment" for the advantages of Ulthwe, since they can be easily replaced by other strong units.

My suggestion is simply to raise the point cost of Ulthwe formations by 5-10 points each; the Guardian formations by 10, perhaps the super-heavies as well, and other formations by 5.  It's not much, but it's subtle enough to have a nice effect.  In a 2700 point game, with 12 activations, that enough to have to choose to include Support Platforms or not for a Warhost, whether to upgrade Wraithguard to Wraithlords, or how many Exarchs to include.  It makes some tough choices for the Ulthwe player, which I, as one, think is a good thing.

I'm really tired of people complaining about any Eldar being cheesy/beardy.  And Ulthwe, with nearly all the advantages of Biel-Tan and then some, really makes itself a target for such complaints, whether they're valid or not.  I think it's better to err on the side of caution than status quo.  The subtle changes I've suggested do not require extensive playtesting, I think they're just enough to flavour the difference of Uthwe.

Thoughts and comments?[B][B]

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 Post subject: Hi all, Ork list
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:13 pm 
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Thanks for your input Chroma, and Tim, I'm taking them into consideration when i design my list for this tourney coming up.

On the topic of Aspect Warriors... I actually like the smaller formations that are offered in the Ulthwe list then the larger ones in the Biel-Tan list, largely because the point expenditure means that I have more tactical flexibility and I hate having to allocate my supreme commander to a formation that very likely could also be my most expensive formation (for Break Their Spirit)...

Adam


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 Post subject: Hi all, Ork list
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 8:34 am 
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Quote (Clockwerks @ 19 2005 July,16:50)
There is one combination that I've been thinking could have a potentially devastating effect and I'm curious if anyone has used it:

Black Guardian Formation:[150]
1 Farseer Council [25]
1 Farseer Upgrade [25]
6 Guardians
2 Wave serpents [200]
4 Falcons [150]

Total Units: 14
Total Cost: 550pts

Thoughts?

Adam

Its a good combination. Fast and deadly.

I see that you are suggesting using it for FF engagements and I would be inclinded to agree. But if so why the extra ponts on CC orienated (sp?) Seer Council and Extra Farseer.

To get maximum benefit from these guys they need to be in the front line trading blows and thus they take the first hits. Not really what I want I want my SC to be doing.

Tiny.

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 Post subject: Hi all, Ork list
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 8:39 am 
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Chroma,

One quick point, having a spacecraft fail to activate the turn before your opponent's spacecraft does not bump that craft back a turn. Your craft goes into the next available space.

Tiny

Oh yes and SM are Strat 5 as well, so its a roll off on choosing sides etc.





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 Post subject: Hi all, Ork list
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 12:13 pm 
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Quote (Tiny-Tim @ 20 2005 July,08:39)
One quick point, having a spacecraft fail to activate the turn before your opponent's spacecraft does not bump that craft back a turn. Your craft goes into the next available space.

At the start of the game, after placing objectives, you declare spaceships, correct?  

We diced off, I won, and declared "Turn 3", therefore, his "slow and steady" Battle Barge could *only* come in on Turn 4, which never occured as I'd won the game by then since over 2/3 of his army was still off the board.

That dice-off only occured because Ulthwe has SR5, any other Eldar army (or non-Marine army) would've had to face that Battlebarge with nothing they could do about it.  That's a significant advantage, even if it's not 100% reliable.

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 Post subject: Hi all, Ork list
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 12:15 pm 
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Quote (Tiny-Tim @ 20 2005 July,08:34)
I see that you are suggesting using it for FF engagements and I would be inclinded to agree. But if so why the extra ponts on CC orienated (sp?) Seer Council and Extra Farseer.

Seer Council also has +2FF (MW) attacks, thought it's at 5+, that's still nasty.

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 Post subject: Hi all, Ork list
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:20 pm 
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Quote (Chroma @ 20 2005 July,12:13)
Quote (Tiny-Tim @ 20 2005 July,08:39)
One quick point, having a spacecraft fail to activate the turn before your opponent's spacecraft does not bump that craft back a turn. Your craft goes into the next available space.

At the start of the game, after placing objectives, you declare spaceships, correct? ?

We diced off, I won, and declared "Turn 3", therefore, his "slow and steady" Battle Barge could *only* come in on Turn 4, which never occured as I'd won the game by then since over 2/3 of his army was still off the board.

That dice-off only occured because Ulthwe has SR5, any other Eldar army (or non-Marine army) would've had to face that Battlebarge with nothing they could do about it. ?That's a significant advantage, even if it's not 100% reliable.

You are quite correct. I mis-understood what you initially said.

But anybody playing with a Battlebarge faces the same possible problem if they come up against another marine player with a spacecraft in a tournament.

Tiny

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