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IG Salamanders: A new essential?
nealhunt	Post subject: IG Salamanders: A new essential? Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:30 pm
Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA	It looks usable to me but as always, I have more comments : >> Should [aspects] be set at four stands plus transport, or a core of four with an option to add another two, plus transports? I suspect either will work fine, as long as it is limited to 1 exarch per formation.  I have some small reservations about the effectiveness of 2 4-unit aspect troupes loaded in a Vampire.  I think they could be more effective than a single 8-unit host, but opinions on that issue seem to vary. >> Think of [vypers] as replacing the Support Weapon Platforms. I understand the concept, but I don't think you're going to find them tactically useful.  Unlike adding weapon platforms to a foot-slogger host, the mounted hosts already have ranged fire.  Ranged fire has 2 uses - killing the enemy and blacing BMs.  The difference in firepower isn't going to change whether firing at range is viable for actual attrition of the enemy.  It still won't be very effective and therefore firing is a waste of the formation's core capability - assault. I think they are fine for character, and in light of their (imho) limited usefulness, I would put them at 30 points to start with. >> I see the Jet Bikes as the piranha shoals of my Eldar, and the Vypers as the longer ranged mobile platforms. Taking out the ranged fire removes the bikes' ability to place BMs.  Even with 35cm skimmer movement, assaults just won't happen every turn.  The ability to take a pot shot and place a BM after a double move can be extremely valuable.  Personally, I don't think allowing a vyper in the formation appreciably changes the "piranha" feel, but your mileage may vary. >> The War Walkers are mainly in there because I just really like them. Sounds okay to me.  You might consider boosting the host to 8 models (for 250?) just to give them some more staying power and more of a "host" feel.  Also, if you are denying all garrisons, where does that leave these guys? >> One the one hand, I think that CC4+, FF6+ is the most logical, but that makes them better in close combat than Dire Avengers and Swooping Hawks, and as good as Striking Scorpions! I think that's okay.  They are better at CC in 40K than DAs or Hawks.  They have a lower WS, but they have 2 attacks each and will usually have a warlock with them to use Enhance.  They still won't be as good as Scorpions because the Scorpions get twice the number of attacks. >> On the other hand, CC5+ and FF5+ is not too bad, and may be more realistic. Also a good option. >> I would also like to add a dedicated command formation at some point. I think I would go for the Farseer Council.  It's the only dedicated commander in the eldar background that fits in with the guardian-based nature of the army. You may find yourself light on AT without the falcons.  One option to add that back in would be to allow the Vampire Raiders as air support. ========= I think the list is solid and balanced.  If anything, I would guess it to be a tad on the weak side and most of the options I mentioned above would give littel boosts. _________________ Neal
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CyberShadow

Post subject: IG Salamanders: A new essential? Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2005 7:07 pm

Swarm Tyrant Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm Posts: 9348 Location: Singapore

Continued thanks, guys, for helping me to slap this thing into shape. They had an army list in their for Ulthwe Strike Force. That featured a Guardian heavy fast force with jetbikes and vypers. I think that I got something like this from the web site. However, I am obviously not be very clear here (not so unusual!). What I am looking for are formations of Guardians which can mix in and threaten an enemy formation or flank, and then mount up and zip off somewhere else easily. I am not very interested in Jet Bikes as a focus to the force. I suspect either will work fine, as long as it is limited to 1 exarch per formation.

Are Exarchs really that good? Anyway, I like the idea of a core unit of four, with the ability to add a further two. This will mean that some Aspect Troupes (eg Scorpions) can be larger than other (eg Reapers). I wont trouble myself with the merits of two lots of four or onelot of eight... I will leave that to the Epic Intellectuals.  

I understand the concept, but I don't think you're going to find them tactically useful.

That is all fine, but you have to admit that the Host swooping in, Vypers spraying AT shots while the Guardians jump out of Wave Serpents to firefight, is a great theme! I will just be very pleased to get some AT weapons that can keep up with the Guardians. Thirty points sounds good to me.

Personally, I don't think allowing a vyper in the formation appreciably changes the "piranha" feel, but your mileage may vary.

True, the Jet Bikes wont be able to soften up targets before launching at them. But, they will be able to work with other formations, and I see them pouncing and finishing off already broken formations while the rest of the force moves forwards. I would want them to work on flanks and behind my own lines really.

You might consider boosting the host to 8 models (for 250?) just to give them some more staying power and more of a "host" feel.  Also, if you are denying all garrisons, where does that leave these guys?

Eight for 250 sounds good to me too. They cant garrison (more in a minute), meaning that they will need to double time. I see these guys as capturing rally points and then moving on. They will be difficult to use well, but I can live with that.

They are better at CC in 40K than DAs or Hawks.

True, but it also puts them on a par with Marines! And I have to bear in mind that they should be pointed at the same level as the 'standard' Guardians, to avoid paying to upgrade them. I will probably go with CC5+, FF5+ at least for now. However, I will need to think about this more.

As for the command formation, I wanted something a bit more military than a Seer council. A Phoenix Lord and retinue would be ideal... More thoughts required.

It is true that without the Falcons I may lack AT weapons. But, remember that they are also provided by the Vypers, and could potentially be dotted in quite a few formations. This is one reason to limit Falcons to their transport role for Aspects.

I had forgotten about the two types of Vampire, and since I was using Swordwind to start with, I just assumed that I would use the Vampire Raider. It suits me fine. I will also have ready access to Nightwings.

Coming back to garrisons, what if the Rangers were the only unit in the force that was able to garrison? It feels right, helps their lack of mevement compared to the rest of the force, and allows some advanced movement.

And so, the not-very-modified latest version is:

INDIVIDUALS

0-1 Wraithgate (as Swordwind, 50 points)

0-1 Autarch (as Swordwind (+75 points), must be the only Exarch in an Aspect Troupe. This guy will probably be replaced out, maybe for a Phoenix Lord from the destroyed Craftworld as a dedicated unit)

HOSTS

Guardian Warhost
Core
- 1x Farseer, 7x Guardian (each can be a defender squad (as Swordwind) or Storm Squad (close combat)), 4x Wave Serpents (350 points)
Upgrade
- Add up to three Vypers (+30 points each)

War Walker Host (as Swordwind, eight for 250 points)

TROUPES (Up to 3 for each Host)

Aspect Warrior Troupe
Core
- 4x Aspect Warriors (150 points)
Upgrade
- 2x Aspect Warriors (+75 points)
- 1x Exarch (+25 points)
- Transports of Wave Serpents or Falcons (+50/+65 points)

Jet Bike Troupe (6 Jet Bike units at 200 points)
Ranger Troupe (4 Ranger stands at 100 points)
Fire Prism Troupe (3 Fire Prisms at 250 points)
Night Spinner Troupe (3 Night Spinners at 175 points)
Storm Serpent Troupe (1 Storm Serpent at 250 points)
Engines of Vaul Troupe (2 units, each either a Cobra or Scorpion or a combination, for 500 points)

SPACECRAFT, AIRCRAFT AND TITANS

All as Swordwind (including the use of the Vampire Raider)

Things to consider:

Storm Squad Guardians. Are the stats right, or should they be CC4+, FF6+?
Dedicated command formation