I know that seemed small, but you only get 5 per sprue, so I thought work with that. And if they are too small, its only because everything else is larger.

I think 4 Terminators in a formation is fine I dont have a problem with that, but Chaos Termies are hard to come by so even if I only wanted to use 2, I don't see why that would be an issue, its my problem if they arent effective. But at least I could play them. Right now I have 10 individual ones, with no chance of probably buying more. So right now I am stuck.

Actually, allowing me to upgrade a Chaos Marine to a Termie in a reg formation would allow me to do this... and I would be fine with that.

2 unit assault formations would find Blast Markers a problem and if you pointed them cheap to allow for this you are then opening up spamming.

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www.epic-uk.co.uk
NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

You can always spread them out.... you only need 12 chaos termies to make a formation of four stands.... there maybe someone on the forum with two spares...

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Just some guy

My hobby/painting threads

Army Forge List Co-ordinator

Well, I looked into all the chaos lists in the bible of army lists, and I hate every gosh darned one of them. The guys that developed these lists must have had hoards of miniatures, and I can't for the life of me, how you tell a newbie he needs to go out (if you mount 3 bikes per stand like Epic 40k) and buy 24 freaking biker models to make one formation.

Doing 8 Chaos Infantry stands to make one retinue is manageable. Making two retinues uses up way too many minis.

I can't field any daemons on the table until they summon, so that means I have less formations on the board, and less activations. I guess that's why there are at least 8 Chaos Marines in the retinue - survivability.

Chaos Terminators, Havocs, Noise Marines, all groups of 4 minimum, and only 5 come on a sprue and those are hard to come by.

I don't even know what half of the war engines look like, but I can only spend 1/3 on them? Why who the hell cares?? Points are points.

I can't even bring in some Cultists and Beastmen as filler unless I play the Stigmatus Covenants or Daemon World lists, which is nice, as they don't field Chaos Marines.

The Red Corsairs, who I have no idea they are, have more of a variety of choices, but still need groups of 4-8 stands per formation. I don't have a problem with 4, but the 8 bugs me.

4 Silver Towers??? Yeah how many people have 4 of those laying around? Who put this list together???

Honestly guys, this blows. I know I can do what I want but I am stunned this got this far. No wonder this game died. 8 something lists and I can't field a respectable force from any. Not saying all the lists should be based on what I own, but I have a reasonable variety of chaos minis, and I cant use all of them in any single list.

Suggestions:

Retinue: SIX Chaos Marines + Lord or Sorcerer and Upgrades including adding up to 2 Terminators, Berzerkers, Noise Marines, Havoks, etc, whoever I don't care about animosity, on a 40k board the four factions of chaos get along fine in tight spaces.

Armored Company is fine.

Biker: WTF. We playing Orks??? Even Space Marines only have 5. Bring this to 6 at least.

Terminators, Chosen, even Havoks and Raptors is fine, but as I put above, some of those should be available as upgrades. It helps people with bitz here and there fill out formations if they want.

Greater Daemons and Lesser Daemons should be allowed to be placed on the table at the start. I know summoning sounds cool, but considering you could do this in previous editions, forcing your opponent to pay attention to a unit actually on the board as opposed to 'maybe summoning near these guys' means he doesnt put every gun on units that can summon, and I don't see how that is remotely fun playing against shooty armies.

No way to field odd ball units like trolls, etc, unless I play Daemon World. That's nice. I know these are old minis, but honestly, they are a lot easier to come by on Ebay than Chaos Terminators.

Dreadnoughts and Vidicators should be their own formations too. Just helps with the variety.

Coven + any combo of cultists + beastment (call them mutants whatever) Actually mutants is even better than you can mount Chaos Squats and Minotaurs all on the same base I don't care. Dark Vengeance included Chosen and Cultists and I don't see why this cant be done here.

Every list is so specific they don't even look fun to play. There are so few formations that I am already board playing them, and I haven't started. Honestly, if am just going to pick out pieces of what I want based on what is in my bitz box and be done with it. I wish I had twice the minis than whoever put these lists together, then I could argue that 8, not 4, Silver Towers isn't only BALANCED, its ELEGANT too. Elegant was the key world before 'balanced' came to town.

WHO ACTUALLY PLAYS CHAOS HERE? Tell me you really enjoy these lists.

Multiple lists has always bern the design ethos of EA, to suggest this is why it 'died' is simply false. Is a game with a growing number of players and multiple growing tournament scenes 6+ years after its last support dead?

Each Chaos list represents a different facet of Chaos, have you played them to dismiss them all?

Do you understand how BMs work? Thats why Chaos needs bigger formations.

Getting the models together for any chaos list is not difficult via ebay, any list you could easily get 4-5k together for less than £150. Including items such as Silver towers, and thats not even using the plethora of other 6mm companies. If that is too much and you won't look elsewhere you are in the wrong hobby.

In response to your last question lots of people like and use the Chaos lists as can be seen by traffic on these boards and lists used in tournaments

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www.epic-uk.co.uk
NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

It seems like you need to find another game, since clearly this game isn't for you. Or rather since you have so many problems with the existing lists, why don't you create your own list and see how many people would actually play with that.

Wow, I hope you feel better after that.

Getting GW models for any of the army lists is getting harder and harder. I for one am very happy with the wide variety of alternative producers that are selling their own ranges but are perfectly suitable for using in Epic.

Small formations of any army are very fragile in the current version of the rules, they can be used, but you have to be very careful in how you use them. I'd suggest printing out some of the paper units and trying out the forces before becoming board from reading the lists.

Different factions (armies) have been used in bigger games, but with the total variety of units, it would be very hard to balance an army list with so many units and in an unsupported environment I don't think there is enough cohesive support to do that any more. Plus we then end up with units that aren't played or become must haves.

And finally to answer your question yes we do have lots of Chaos players about the place and I personally have:

Night Lords (proxy as Black Legion & Iron (Cobalt) Warriors)
Thousand Sons
Emperors Children
World Eaters (almost finished)
Death Guard (way from being finished)
& Lost & the Damned.

Rarer models gat swopped between armies as I play them & yes I was lucky (old) enough to be able to get several infantry box sets when they were available, but most of my armies have been finished by on line shopping and swops with other players.

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www.epic-uk.co.uk - home of the UK Epic tournament scene
NetEA NetERC Xenos Lists Chair
NetEA Ork + Feral Ork + Speed Freak Champion

I do, i'll be taking black legion to a 5 game tournament this weekend. I've also used it in narrative/campaign games and mega battles.

If you want more of specific figures from the chaos box you might try swapping them. When I was first building my army I traded off spare havoks, command figures etc. to get more regular chaos marines and berserkers (or just … more berserkers, my army is almost all berserkers, that took a lot of trading as it was 2 stands per box …).

The EA chaos box sprue doesn't have a great mix of figures for army building (compared to regular marines), i'd agree, there are too many troop types for that. But you could get away with buying maybe 2 boxes and swapping the bits you didn't want, or buying 3–4 if you wanted to keep it all. Buying 2 boxes for an army does not seem unreasonable. They are OOP now, but only in the last few months, and it would be wasteful to just throw away years of balanced list development.

One of the things that attracted me to chaos was that for many of the units there are not any models, or those models are expressive/hard to get. This made it cheaper overall because I made a lot of my own models and conversions from scratch/bitz.

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AFK with real life, still checking PMs

I joined after support for the game had stopped. Why would I care about what sprues were made 20 years ago? I don't even buy out of date ugly plastic models when there's much better alternatives available new.
Plus, like Apoc, I make a lot of my own.


As for the list, since you are so short on models, perhaps a skirmish version of the ruleset? Something that seuges into Minigeddon. If you gave each model a unique base and counted it as a 'unit' then the BM system could still work. It does mean a bit of finicking around with identifying heavy weapon troops though.

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My shifting projects

Have you tried playing monopoly? You get all the miniatures/meeples you need in the box ehen you buy the game...

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https://epic40ksweden.wordpress.com/

"You have a right to be offended" - Steve Hughes
"Your feelings are hurting my thoughts" - Aron Flam

Yeah I agree. I really tried tho. This is my second attempt. The first was during the Playtesters days. And I didn't have any issues with Space Marines, Orks, or Eldar, but those minis are a lot easier to come by.



Yeah, I do a little.



What alternative producers?

I do see more minis for Space Marines and Eldar and so on than I do some of the others, but I have seen Imperial Guard troops and Tyranid infantry going for insane amounts too, which makes me wonder how difficult it is to field an army in the composition that the lists require.



What alternatives are you talking about? From where?

The plastic infantry sprues are all I know, and the only place I know to get them are Ebay and here.



You know I heard I could get the same if I buy Checkers! @ss.

I was about to ask for the 10 minutes of my life that I wasted reading this thread back, but at least you seem to have a sense of humor about it, KTG.

Two things: sounds like you need to get some more minis, even if just playing NetEpic. There are a bunch of threads about proxies and alternative lines on this forum. Second, the chaos SM list didn't come out of thin air. The basic structure, and almost all of the stats, come from the original list put out be GW. It also heavily influenced the various developmental lists out there. (Red corsairs are non legionary traitor marines, btw) So the "you guys suck, what did you do?!?" line is just a tad unfair

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Let us playtest like the Greeks of old... You know the ones I mean

No refunds. You clicked the link.



Yeah I don't mean to sound that the work and effort here isn't appreciated. I know you guys are passionate players keeping this game alive. However, I guess my gripes go farther back than most of you could know, and i didnt even explain that in this thread. So of the guys here know me from wwwaayyyy back so they have heard these kinds of argurments before. But its like this:

When Jervis was initially coming up with the Imperial Guard list, he only wanted one support formation per company, and I was like, not only is that going to be boring, its also going to be very expensive. He said he wanted to emphasize the nature of the imperial guard and their large formations, to which I replied SM2/TL allowed 5 support for 1 company, and no one complained. So the compromise was 2 support per company. My arguement was imagine shelling out tons of money on Leman Russes and always having to keep them together and how repetative it would be only playing so many units in a 2000-3000 pt game.

One of the great things about SM2/TL and Epic 40k was the sheer variety in the different detachments you could buy. Each and every time you played you could come up with creative ways to play, based on the available formations. So that orginal 1-to-1 ratio Jervis was trying to set, just to meet this idea of what the list should look like, was so limiting to me it was boring, and not anything I wanted to invest in.

And all I have seen from these lists is the limit of forces to meet a certain theme. I am not saying not to have those themes. If someone wants to field a complete Slannesh army that is fine, but make it within the boundaries of a larger Chaos list. As I was showing I had all these different units spread out in different lists that I had no way of fielding a complete army unless I just rip out from each list what I want, give it a name, and now have a working list I can use for my army. Which is ridiculous. Its like, setting a limit, then making that limit void when desired.

So being that this game is out of print, minis hard to come by, and hard for newbies to get into, the lists themselves should be the exact opposite of limiting. They should be as flexible as possible. If that means throwing odd units in a generic list who cares?

Its not going to throw the balance of any list off balance so long as the value of those units are comperable to the rest in points and abilities.

Thats all I am saying.

Don't feed the (chaos) troll lads...

Whatever man, I can't voice my complaints and offer suggestions? Give me a break.