If you play 3 or 4 turns, and then the game is decided by a dice roll at the end, it's a crappy game. It's a shitty, bad game, even if somebody think that's a fun experience.

Fortunatly Epic isn't like that. But there can be tendencies towards it, and the assault resolution dice are the main culprit.

Maybe I'm just bad at it, but I find it hard to prevent my opponent from launching assaults where he has a 30% or 40% chance of winning (short of annihilating his army first), because the mobility of engaging and supporting formations can be so high. If the game is close or he's winning that's a bad move, so setting my formations up so that they can't easily be crushed is enough. If my opponent thinks "hell with it", it's much harder for for me to prevent him turning the game into a crapshoot.

If its not going your way anyway, why not give it a go?? If your defeat looked a sure thing in a real battle, would you not throw your all at it? The only thing certain is Uncertainty itself. Even with the odds in your favour, the better troops and weapons you can never be sure.

A famous Philosopher once said "Assumption is the mother of all **** ups"

_________________
Walk softly. And carry a big gun.

EPIC!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_Fortuna

_________________
It Could Be Worse... http://goo.gl/mxJVK
EATOTALWAR: http://goo.gl/xLNrvL
Painting and modelling: http://goo.gl/fB4fV
Orkonia: http://goo.gl/j6Q3v
Hive Cassius: http://goo.gl/vJSxA

at the last tournament I attended, I was up against Reedar and his orks, he had a blitz brigade and stompamob intermingled, the stompas were on one objective and the blitz brigade within doubling distance of my blitz.... for my final activation I had a thawk full of assault marines with chaplain, with 2 blast markers

I wanted to clip the blitz brigade, and drag the stompas in, if I broke them, then at the very least it may have gone to 4 turns, however the thawk failed to activate and I lost 2-0 right there..... I wasn't in a bad position overall and may well have turned it around on T4, but a bad dice roll lost me the game

this kind of thing happens all the time, units failing to activate, shadowswords missing on a sustain fire, assaulting marines getting blatted by guardsmen.... to point out one specific case of bad luck ruining the game is a bit odd to me

_________________
Just some guy

My hobby/painting threads

Army Forge List Co-ordinator

Because it makes a shitty game, that's why. If all you're playing for in the first part is the right to not start the assaults that will actually decide the game, couldn't you just push around big "28mm" mediatures and throw buckets of dice?

I'll readily admit that it's not such a big problem in actual games that I sometimes think it is. I am disappointed that you guys don't even consider it a theoretical problem.

Last time I was up against Reedar and his orks, he was giving me a training game and revealed his master plan for the 3rd turn, and then the key unit failed to activate.
Then I blew up my only threatening unit by driving a battlefortress through terrain, reducing the game to a draw.

two bad dice rolls, one apiece.

_________________
My shifting projects

I dont think its not that we consider it a problem. I think its more that the system reflects the uncertain nature of combat - the sh*tty nature of this part of the game reflects that. I personally think the assaults are WAY to complex to work out, especially with alot of formations involved.

Ulrik - if you had been very very succesful in all your assaults and they all went your way, and all your opponents fell like wheat to your forces would you still be so angry at the situation? I dont think so....

However, is your opponent smug he won? Probably. Will he be so smug when the tables are reveresed? Not at all

_________________
Walk softly. And carry a big gun.

Let us analyze in depth the issue.
We have two sides facing each other, with values ​​of C/C and F/F

What influences an engagement?

- The difference in casualties
- BM situation
- The inspiring
- numerical strenght

and finally the roll of two dice, choosing the best.

Let case, if an engage of two huge army we have these values:

- 37 losses on the one hand, the other 34 losses (really happened, tyranid against orcs)

A player has an advantage of 3, but what happens?
That the winner of the engagement, realistically, will be broken for the losses suffered by transforming the
resolution of the engagement in a strategic draw. Here's your luck in the 2 dice begins to
have less value.

In the smaller clashes, however, the result of two dice has value, and that's the luck factor can
unbalance a result. (If you have +5 or +6 rarely you will lose)

What do you think?
fair play rule.

_________________
It Could Be Worse... http://goo.gl/mxJVK
EATOTALWAR: http://goo.gl/xLNrvL
Painting and modelling: http://goo.gl/fB4fV
Orkonia: http://goo.gl/j6Q3v
Hive Cassius: http://goo.gl/vJSxA

I shall never forget the time my Infantry Company beat a Warlock titan in a FF, never...

As to last turn pyrrhic assaults I don't see them happening often. An extra formation holding or blocking an objective is normally more productive. But as ever ymmv.

_________________
@MephistonAG for all sorts of twitter madness

If all my assaults were succesful only because I rolled higher on the resolution dice, then yes, I'd be disappointed.

in the same way that if you need to make a bunch of 4+ saves and get lucky and pass them all?

edit: or your opponent misses with both deathstrikes?

apart from a few select armies, the game is typically won in engagements, they provide a way to kill the enemy both with actual damage AND from hackdowns, a formation of terminators engaging a nicely prepped target is lethal enough, if the game went like clockwork, the most dangerous part of the game would be a complete no-brainer

the dice roll reflects that something as potent as an engagement shouldn't always be a sure thing, it also means that a desperate last stand or final push can win you the battle

hell during the battle of gettysberg a bunch of union soldiers forced some confederates to surrender by charging with bayonets, they had run out of ammo and were desperate, which is a very good real-world parallel

_________________
Just some guy

My hobby/painting threads

Army Forge List Co-ordinator

Ulrik - You obviously feel really strongly about this, and I am sorry if our comments seem negative. But for me I am failing to see your point. It seems to relate to unlucky dice rolls? If I miss your point let me know.....

_________________
Walk softly. And carry a big gun.

But, for example, if with 4 terminator I Fail all the 3+ to hit, extra attack too, and i fail one save 4+ reinforced. I Damn the fortune in this moment, heheheh, not in the resolution dice. Really, I see more and more importance to the quality of the dice you roll, the movement of engagement, and the overall strategic framework.

how many
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_victory
I've see in my wargame exp.

And this is the power of this game, really, if you face a skilled player, rarely you'll win, most probably, you'll draw.

_________________
It Could Be Worse... http://goo.gl/mxJVK
EATOTALWAR: http://goo.gl/xLNrvL
Painting and modelling: http://goo.gl/fB4fV
Orkonia: http://goo.gl/j6Q3v
Hive Cassius: http://goo.gl/vJSxA

Dice rolls are a part of the game. But the assault dice will always be one of the most important dice rolls in the game (it can kill multiple enemy units AND save several of yours!) - the effect of just that dice roll is out of proportion to anything else in the game, except maybe the activation roll for a big engagement action you've set up where a failure hangs the supporting formations out to dry. I don't like that roll either, but at least you can plan for having a reroll for it.

which is exactly why you can stack the deck so strongly..... you go in with a slight advantage, it's a big risk, go in with +5/+6 to start with and a fistful of attack dice? not so much

plus you can't seriously think it's worse than the critical roll on a landing craft stuffed to the gizzards with 3 formations??

_________________
Just some guy

My hobby/painting threads

Army Forge List Co-ordinator