I've asked Nealhunt to look at this thread as he will have been involved in the FAQ's.

Direct quotes from the rules:
Overwatch 1.10
So that's that sorted out.
*****

Transporting Ground Units 4.2.5
If it has a speed of zero, it can't trigger Overwatch fire.

3.1.3 simply deals with picking up and dropping off transported units and how they may embark/disembark.


War Engines Charge Move 3.3.1
This passage clearly states that a WE can barge as part of an Engagement move. Aerial WE's that wish to enter an enemies ZoC are performing an Engagement move and therefore can barge into the target formation.

Seems simple enough to me (hopefully, I'm not missing anything... ).

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In Planetfall:
Please note that I was trying to give a simplistic explanation to cover the slight difference in the way OW fire is handled. Onyx has gone some way to explain the details:-
In general OW fire is covered in 1.10 and permits fire to take place after a move, and after disembarcation.

• In 1.7.5, Units my disembark at the end of any move . . . . This happens after any OW fire takes place but before shooting or assaulting . . .
• In 3.13, Units may disembark from a WE "can dismount the transported units at the end of a move in the same way as a normal transport vehicle" ie following 1.7.5

However, Air transports do not follow exactly the same rules,

• When flying, the approach move is not deemed to be "movement" as such; thus OW fire can only take place after disembarcation.
• Planetfall is not considered to be "movement" as such; at the end of the 3rd para "Landing does not count as movement for the purposes of triggering enemy overwatch fire."

So in summary; you can only shoot at troops exiting 'air transports' after disembarcation, while you can shoot at formations exiting 'ground transports' either before or after they disembark.

the only thing that suggests that an approach move is not "movement" is an FAQ response. the rules in no way back this assertion up. hell even the phrase "approach move" implies a move.

onyx: the thing you're missing, is this


so if an aircraft ignores units until it lands, it cannot possibly come into contact with them until it has done so, at which point it has a 0cm move, and cannot barge.
this was explained to me as being bypassed by the fact that the "approach move" ends as a ground vehicle when making an air assault.
if that is true, then the ground vehicle has clearly ended its movement, which is one of the two options for triggering overwatch
if it isnt, then the aircraft approach move cannot have contacted any units, because IT IGNORES THEM.

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Does this then mean that, in terms of the original answer, the THawk doesn't take 2BM, but just 1?

I.e. The flak attack can only be made at the approaching aircraft, but the OW shots can only be taken at one of the disembarking formations?

Meaning that the Thunderhawk in my example would take 1BM, and one of the Marine detachments would take 1BM


(I know the formations are treated as one for the purposes of that assault, but subsequently become their own seperate entities)

The THawk gets the BM for the AA attack, obviously. However for the OW attack, only a single BM is applied to the assault formation (which obviously may comprise more than one actual formation). Here, the BM is placed on the nearest unit (to the firing formation) and stays with that formation after the assault. So, if you have barged the THawk into enemy unit(s) and left others out of b-b then the THawk gets it. If there are several candidates, the defender gets to choose (as per shooting hit allocation).

If the marines get out to assault you can overwatch and 2BM, if the marines stay inside hoping they T'hawk wins by itself then 1BM....not a risk I'd like to take!

While I understand your point about the "approach move" sounding like it ought to be considered 'movement', it does not function the same way as a normal 'ground' move; you do not take three of them for starters and there is an obvious transition at some point as the vehicle hits the ground (or those things under it). Consequently it is not deemed to be a 'move' in the sense of the E:A definition of "a move". As far as I am aware, the FAQ has been around for many years and has always been played this way***.

Regarding 'Barging', there is nothing to stop you landing an assaulting WE smack in the middle of an enemy formation where convention (and respect for your opponents models) allows his figures to be moved out from under your lead; this is deemed to be 'barging' under the WE sense of the definition. While the WE is not 'moving' as such, the opposing units are being displaced.

*** IIRC, part of the argument was whether non-AA weaponry could reasonably expect to hit and destroy fast moving targets; small arms might well hit but not really affect the aircraft, while bigger weaponry like tank shells could not be aimed accurately enough - and yes I am sure people can argue this either way.

I think you would still get 2BM either way Meph; one for being shot at by AA, and one for each enemy formation shooting under OW.

The only issue is where the BM(s) for being shot at under OW would be put, and I understood that each would be placed on the formation nearest the firers.

you never take 3 moves when performing an assault. or an attack. aircraft perform 1 move, because their options only allow one move, and being aircraft, they have an unlimited speed.
there is indeed a defined transition point as to when it becomes a ground vehicle.

so, after making their move, they land.

so once landed, they are a 0cm speed unit. which cannot barge, because it cannot possibly move into units.
while airborne (ie: before it lands) it cannot barge, because it ignores enemy units

now, the question of if an aircraft that lands on its move can be shot at in overwatch stems from deciding at which point in the "after the move" the "Landing" part takes place, and if the "Triggers Overwatch" part happens before or after.
i am personally of the opinion that it should take place after the landing part.

but in either situation, one thing is clear. if the aircraft is allowed to barge (i again, do not at all believe that it should) then it must have been a ground formation during (not after) the move section (else it could not have moved in such a way as to barge) which would definitely be early enough that the Triggers Overwatch part of the movement had not yet occured.

so, if an aircraft cannot be a ground formation until after overwatch has been triggered, then it clearly cannot have been a ground formation long enough to make a barge.




sure there is. you're not allowed to place your model over enemy models unless you ignore them. you cannot barge them without being on the ground to do so, therefore you cannot land in the middle of an enemy formation, but only where the model could fit without contacting an enemy figure.

again, nothing in the rules in any way supports the idea of aircraft barging. the rules for planetfall clearly indicates a proceedure for when a unit that is not moving comes into contact with another unit. the fact that similar rules where not also included in the aircraft section shows that they should not be able to come into contact with another unit. if we must violate that part of the rules, then we should follow the part of the rules which deal with the same situation (ie: planetfall) not make up our own version of things which violate the rules quite thoroughly.

aircraft should not be allowed to barge. the FAQ is at the very least, inconsistent in its application of the rules. its legitimacy is therefore suspect. when the rules say one thing, and the FAQ says something completely different, the correct answer should come from the rules. thats why they're the RULES.



see, that isnt unreasonable (if unsupported by the rules in any capacity) except for the fact that in the assault that takes place, small arms are indeed (and infact, are the only things that can) affect the aircraft.

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Well I have tried to explain the rules as I believe everyone else plays them;

1. Effectively you may only OW an air-transport after the troops have disembarked.
2. Because the approach move ignores ZOC, an air-transport may be placed over part of an enemy formation when it assaults. The enemy units physically under the air transport model are "barged" clear using the WE barging rules.
3. When an air-transport Planetfalls it is not assaulting, so must be placed clear of enemy ZOC (as described in the planetfalling rules). This is a totally different mechanic and a different process that should not be confused with the air assault described earlier.

If you choose to play the game differently (and it is after all your choice), please make sure that you discuss your interpretations in the warm up beforehand (though perhaps this might take a bit longer than 5 mins )

i understand how you and quite possibly most people are playing them. i have tried to explain the rules as they are actually written, which to my mind should trump the "everyone else is


yes, as i've shown, this is only supported by the FAQ response. the Rules themselves are pretty clear in the opposite direction.


the approach move ignores ZOC, it also ignores figures and terrain. the rules clearly state that you are allowed to enter an enemies ZOC when making an assault. it also discusses landing in terrain. at no stage does it make any extra allowances for placing a unit over an enemy model. and again, non-moving units cannot come into contact with enemy figures, and thus, cannot barge. an aircraft is either a flying unit that ignores enemy figures, or it is a ground unit that cannot move. neither state allows for a barge


the rules for planetfall are the only rules in the book that discuss what happens when a unit that is not moving finds itself in contact with an enemy figure. this information is more pertinent to the topic than any other portion of the rules text. certainly moreso than the FAQs "hell, lets make some stuff up" stance



surely everyone else should spend their 5 minutes explaining why they're breaking the rules :P

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JTG - It's best not to try and include Planetfall and Ground Attack as the same thing.

Planetfall is basically a free movement which allows a unit to be placed on the board. It is obviously not able to call an Engagement action as part of it's free Planetfall move. That is why there are rules for moving Planetfalling formations out of enemy ZoC.

A Ground Attack order is designed to be able to land in an enemy ZoC and if the Ground Attacking unit is a War Engine, it is allowed to barge as all WE's are allowed to barge.

There really is nothing else to discuss here as no one else that I'm aware of, has ever ever had a problem with this and I can't really see why anyone would.

I (genuinely) apologize if this seems rude JTG but this just seems to be complicating this thread and I can't see the rules being changed at this stage.

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i'm not. i'm pointing out that the closest thing that occurs in the rules has very different requirements and results, thus highlighting the inconsistencies in the aircraft response


well, self planetfall would allow it, but thats a seperate point. there is a difference between being in an enemies ZOC and existing over the base. (one is allowed in an assault, the other is not)
i am not in any way saying an aircraft cannot enter an enemies ZOC. that much is very clearly written in the rules
what i'm saying, is that an aircraft cannot land on top of another figure, as it lacks the ability to barge, and that the rules support this statement, in defiance of the FAQ answer



part A of that statement is correct. not all WEs are allowed to barge. ones that cannot move are unable to do so. this includes 0cm move ground vehicles such as landed aircraft. if the aircraft becomes grounded after the movement portion of the activation is completely over (such as would be needed to prevent it being a valid overwatch target) then it cannot possibly barge enemy units. Enter ZOCs, absolutely (again, that is covered in the "things an aircraft can do" barging, is clearly not)



because it is against the rules.



the rules dont need to be changed. the rules are fairly well definined. the FAQ(s) that violate those rules, however. should be changed. which is more official, the rules, or the FAQ? because if the rules say one thing, and the FAQ says the other, then it seems clear to me that the FAQ is wrong. and i cant see why anyone would say otherwise

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Fair enough mate.

You play it your way and those that have been playing their way for the last decade (or so) with no issue at all will play it theirs.
Best not to try and change the way the majority have been playing it though as it has not been an issue for anyone before now (and with good reason I believe).
That's the simplest solution.

I really cannot see the FAQ being changed now as there's little justification for it (although we know you don't agree with that).

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