Correct, of course.

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

Lsrwolf and I have encountered a situation with the Enggage action that just seems so counterintuitive and just plain wrong. So, we have had it clarified that if you are going to countercharge you have to countercharge towards the closest enemy unit. You have a situation where the formation that has been engaged is spread out. Say the units further away from the directly engaged (say 16cm away) enemy units want to countercharge. They have enemy units from an unengaged formation sitting 7cm away, ready, willing, and waiting to give support fire. Now, those units can countercharge, but they have to go towards the closest enemy unit. So, if they move at all to countercharge they have to charge towards the unit 7cm away. But, they can't get into BtB. So, there they sit. Getting hit with support fire, unable to do anything because they had to charge towards that closest unit, but were unable to get into BtB and because its not a unit from the engaging formation they can't even have a swing with their FF value. Just seems very wrong, that they sit there impotent. I think a countercharge should be allowed towards the closest DIRECTLY ENGAGED enemy unit if they player so desires.

Remember, to be a valid target for support fire the unit must have been a valid target for the at taking formation too. If no attackers got within 15 cms of a defender it can't be hit by support fire.

What Mephiston said. A unit can only be the target of support fire if it was within 15cm of an enemy that engaged it in the beginning of the engagement.

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Exactly. That is the intended effect. They are pinned down and unable to react effectively because they were outmaneuvered, the assault analog to a crossfire penalty.

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In answer to the original questions, base contact, no counter-countercharge is allowed (including dismount).

That is also by design. If you're foolish enough to place your base of fire in charge range of the enemy, they get to overrun you before you can react.

Neal, could I just clarify that last post of yoursI have always understood that the only thing that prevented troops in transports from disembarking was by being 'locked in' by having sufficient attackers in BtB contact. Here it seems that you are suggesting that a single attacker in BtB is sufficient to prevent disembarkation by removing the countercharge from the transport. I am sure this is not how we play in the UK, and in all the debates about transport, I have never heard this mentioned before.

Ginger: Base contact is not the issue. Drawn-in formations can't dismount because they have no movement with which to dismount.

Agreed on that, because drawn in formations do not have a countercharge - but the reply seemed to suggest that the original target could not disembark either as it did not have a countercharge (being in BtB)

Ah. I see what you mean. You are correct. A countercharging unit can dismount unless pinned by 2 enemy units.

So:

A A A A (engagers)
11cm

. . . . . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
6cm
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B B B B

Given 1) Formation A charges to within 11cm and targets 1-5 are within 15cm of formation A.
2) Formation B is within 15cm of 6-9

a) 6-9 must countercharge Formation B if they countercharge at all?
b) Provided the attk does not stall, Formation B cannot provide supporting fire because it is not within 15cm of #5?

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~Laserwolf

Yes, we know, the game was intended to be played in the 2000-5000 points range...

On a separate issue:

AFA AFA AFA AFA (Dire Avengers in Wave Serpent)

58cm

. . . . . [ 1 ] (Ogryn unit with Commissar in Chimera)

So what I am hearing is that
1) The Dire Avengers can engage the mobile Fearless Ogryns (35cm + 5cm dismount + 3cm long base length + 15cm FF range)
2) The Ogryns from Hell can counter-charge and end up in base to base (10cm chimera + 5cm dismount)

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~Laserwolf

Yes, we know, the game was intended to be played in the 2000-5000 points range...

a) A. Correct. 6-9 must countercharge the nearest enemy (in this case formation 'B' if they move at all - and must maintain coherency as they do it).
b) A. Correct. To provide support, the units must be in range of those units directly involved in the assault (in this case only units 1-5)

Wow. We have not been playing it that way in regards to support fire only being allowed against units directly involved. That mitigates what I had been griping about in regards to countercharging the closest enemy unit. Ok, so I have to charge the closest enemy unit, but at least I don't get shot at with support fire and do absolutely nothing about it or the formation engaging me.

Yes.

Note, the dismount range is still up for debate. We haven't set the FAQ on whether dismounting units have to be entirely within the 5cm dismount range, or model-to-model like you would measure for formation coherency.

And as answered by Ginger, your other understanding on countercharges and support is correct as well.

er, really? Units aren't assaulted, formations are. As long as any unit in the formation being assaulted is within 15cm of another enemy formation, that enemy formation can provide supporting fire. I've never read that support fire is based on distance of a formation from a particular unit in the formation being assaulted.