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FAQ update.

 Post subject: Re: FAQ update.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 3:27 pm 
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Oh yeah, Drop Pod and War Engine critical hit explosions: Treat them like Barrages or like normal shooting?

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 Post subject: Re: FAQ update.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 4:37 pm 
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Mosc: That's just a concept description, not the final text but I'll definitely keep that in mind.

E&C: Help me recall. I thought we'd decided that casualties cause BMs as normal but there is no "coming under fire" BM.


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 Post subject: Re: FAQ update.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 4:46 pm 
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nealhunt wrote:
E&C: Help me recall. I thought we'd decided that casualties cause BMs as normal but there is no "coming under fire" BM.

I think he was referring to assignment of hits. Example, 12 varied enemy Infantry within 15cm of a Drop Pod. Do you roll 12 times, and then assign closest to furthest? (regular shooting), or roll for each type separately (barrage).

That they count as 'coming under fire' at least in the case of Drop Pods, shouldn't be in question.

NetEA Marines Draft wrote:
Deathwind: After the drop pod lands, its Deathwind attacks all enemy units within 15cm. Each enemy formation attacked receives a Blast marker for coming under fire, and an extra Blast marker for each casualty.


Of course, I might be talking about something completely different.

Morgan Vening


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 Post subject: Re: FAQ update.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 5:02 pm 
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We treat WE explosions and drop pod attack like barrage.

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 Post subject: Re: FAQ update.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 6:26 pm 
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Morgan Vening wrote:
I think he was referring to assignment of hits. Example, 12 varied enemy Infantry within 15cm of a Drop Pod. Do you roll 12 times, and then assign closest to furthest? (regular shooting), or roll for each type separately (barrage).

Ah. Yes, I think a deathwind would work like a barrage. It refers to attacking enemy units in a similar fashion. Criticals might vary depending on the wording, but generally, they also use references to "units" or "each unit" or something similar.

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That they count as 'coming under fire' at least in the case of Drop Pods, shouldn't be in question.
NetEA Marines Draft wrote:
Deathwind: After the drop pod lands, its Deathwind attacks all enemy units within 15cm. Each enemy formation attacked receives a Blast marker for coming under fire, and an extra Blast marker for each casualty.

Bwahahaha! You da man, Morgan. I must have read that 2 or 3 times thinking on the order of play and never noticed that it explicitly solves the BM issue.

So... that only leaves the "check for break" order. I'm still leaning towards that being at the end.


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 Post subject: Re: FAQ update.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 6:48 pm 
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nealhunt wrote:
So... that only leaves the "check for break" order. I'm still leaning towards that being at the end.

You mean "I have three Drop Pods, do we resolve them all, then check break, or check breaks between?".

I'm with you on that. The single activation of the Spacecraft, is to me, just that. That it gets an orbital barrage/pinpoint/drop pods, is no different IMO to an AMTL Warlord with Apocalypse Launcher, Volcano Cannon, and two Megabolters.

Yes, the Drop Pods add in the additional rule of "counts as coming under fire" for each, but other than that, IMO it should be resolved as a single activation. Complete it, then break checks and overwatch.

Morgan Vening


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 Post subject: Re: FAQ update.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 7:19 pm 
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It is not quite as simple as that MV, because the activation potentially affects several formations in close proximity to each other, especially where several pods are all targetted to land in roughly the same place. The point being that the impact of one pod can strip away the ZOC of a shielding formation allowing subsequent pods to be placed closer to more valuable enemy formations.

So, should this be permitted, or should you place all the pods first before carryig out the Deathwind attacks?


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 Post subject: Re: FAQ update.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 7:32 pm 
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Placing all the pods before the attacks seems to be the least fussy of all the solutions. No peeling, no playing the order of the drops, etc.

As per the fluff I've read though, we should just be allowing marines to drop right into the middle of a formation, ZoC be damned. :P

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 Post subject: Re: FAQ update.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 7:40 pm 
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Ginger wrote:
So, should this be permitted, or should you place all the pods first before carryig out the Deathwind attacks?

Most everything in the game has some form of artificial construct (else most formations would have access to the shoot/move aspect of Hit and Run). But to me, there's a timing principle inherent.

Personally, the idea of drop pods deploying in such a manner that one can clear a landing zone for another just doesn't seem kosher. If that were the intent, surely the drop pods would drop as separate activations?

Though, as with most things, I don't really care which way a ruling goes. As long as the ruling is fair, and clear, it's all good.

Morgan Vening


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 Post subject: Re: FAQ update.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 9:18 pm 
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Please go to the spacecraft thread if you would like to discuss further, but the order of play is clear - place, fire, disembark, repeat.


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 Post subject: Re: FAQ update.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 3:31 pm 
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Attempt at final wording. Any suggestions are welcome. Keep in mind these are FAQs rather than rules and should always be considered in a "spirit of the rules" perspective.
========

1.8.4
Q: Can an infantry unit claim cover from enemy armored vehicles?

A: Yes. The rule as written does not distinguish between friendly and enemy vehicles for cover benefits. Some groups feel this is an odd situation and house rule that the cover from enemy units is not allowed, so feel free to cover this in the 5-minute warm-up with your opponent.

1.9.8
Are barrage attacks supposed to be "unit by unit" to-hit and allocation rolls, or is the barrage template merely a marker with "front to back" unit allocation as normal (under the template, of course)?

A: When the barrage rules use the word "type" in relation to a unit, it is not referring to the technical term "unit type" in terms of infantry/AV/etc., but each kind of unit. Basically, every unit under the barrage template stands a chance of being hit and killed by a lucky hit. If the unit is of a unique kind, it would be rolled for separately as it is the only one of its type. Keep in mind that the template placement rules are still in effect and will often limit the amount of "sniping" a player can do through placing templates only on the most valuable units.

As an example, an Ork Warband with 3 Battlewagons and 2 Flakwagons is hit by a large barrage that covers all the infantry and vehicles. The attacker would roll 2 attempts to hit against Nobz, 6 against Boyz and 2 against Grots and apply the hits to the appropriate unit. Likewise, the AT attacks would be divided as 3 attacks on the Battlewagons and 2 on the Flakwagons. If that Warband happened to also include the Ork Warboss, you would roll to hit the unit with the Warboss separately from basic Nobz unit as well.

Note, for simplicity's sake, this approach should also be applied to other effects that specify rolling to-hit over an area, such as drop pod deathwind attacks and critical hit explosions.

1.12.7
Q: There are various "auto-kill" effects which result from lost assaults (broken formations wiped out, aircraft destroyed, etc.). Do those happen before or after the extra hits for losing assault?

A: The hits from losing assault (so-called "hackdown" hits) come first. Per the rules, the hackdown hits occur during resolution (1.12.7) and the "auto-kill" hits either explicitly or implicitly occur after that, usually in the "Loser Withdraws" (1.12.8 ) step. To provide specifics, wiping out a broken formation clearly happens in 1.12.8. The formation's status is changed to "broken" during 1.12.8 as well, so that's when Chaos Daemons disappear into the warp. Aircraft in a lost air assault (4.2.5) are somewhat ambiguous, but the text implies a connection between the automatic destruction and withdrawal, which would correspond to 1.12.8 as well. In the absence of an effect specifically stating the contrary, assume the losing player gets to allocate hackdown hits prior to auto-kills.

2.2.10
Q: How do Invulnerable Saves affect Titan Killer weapons? Do you save once or for each hit?

A: First, according to 2.2.10 and 3.2.5 Titan Killer hits that potentially do multiple points of damage only roll for multiple hits against War Engines. Against a normal unit, that means there is only one TK hit to save against and a single saving throw would therefore protect the unit. For a War Engine, each point of damage is saved against as if it were a separate hit.

3.3.1
Q: Can a War Engine barge an enemy formation and drag units out of coherency? If so, does the formation suffer automatic casualties for being out of formation, as in 1.7.4?

A: In most cases this is not possible because the WE has to follow the charge rules. That means it must move towards any enemy whose Zone of Control it enters. Generally, this forces the WE deeper into the target formation and would not allow it to grab a unit and drag it off.

In the rare case where it is possible for a War Engine to isolate a unit or units, the target formation is not subject to formation coherency under 1.7.4 until the formation moves (countercharges). It may simply choose not to countercharge if it would result in being out of formation. So barging cannot, by itself, cause casualties due to loss of formation (1.7.4).

In any case, dragging apart an enemy formation is something that was never intended under the rules. Attempting it is questionable from a sportsmanship point of view.

4.2.5
Q: It is possible for an aircraft to assault into a formation which is completely covered by the Zones of Control of a formation of Scout units. That would force the dismounting troops to enter the ZoC of the scout formation, which is not allowed. How should this work?

A: In general, treat this as if the unloading formation is starting a move in enemy ZoC. They are already Engaging the target formation, so that requirement is met. The other requirement is that they must attempt to move out of the enemy ZoC. Keep in mind that as enemy units are contacted, they lose their Zone of Control.

If the dismounting troops enter a target's ZoC, they must attempt to reach base contact with that unit, per the charge rules.

If the dismounting troops can move out of all enemy ZoC (avoiding the target's ZoC entirely and escaping the screening ZoC), they may choose to do so instead of charging to base contact.

If the dismounting troops cannot escape all enemy Zones of Control, they must attempt to reach base contact with the target formation.

4.3
Q: The spaceship and drop pod Deathwind rules are somewhat confusing with respect to what constitutes a "firing action" and how BMs for "coming under fire" would be placed. How does Spacecraft and drop pod fire work?

A: Spacecraft attacks generate a single "BM for coming under fire" just as if any other multi-attack unit hits a target. It's analogous to a titan which fired both a barrage weapon and direct fire.

The rules for Drop Pods state explicitly that each formation creates a BM for "coming under fire" for all enemy formations in range of the Deathwind, exactly as if the attacks come from a separate formation. Note, this means a formation hit by a spacecraft barrage and 2 Deathwind attacks will receive 3 BMs for coming under fire, plus any additional BMs for casualties.

There is no clear rules answer about when to apply BMs and check for broken formations, but the best analogy is the bonus BMs for a massive barrage. With that approach, all fire (spacecraft and all Deathwind attacks) woudl be treated as a single, mass "firing action." Apply all BMs generated by all fire as directed, then check for broken formations only after all firing is complete.

Q: The order of resolution for drop pods can make a difference, e.g. if a scout unit is killed by a Deathwind attack, the loss of Zone of Control might clear the area for a different drop pod to land. What is the order of resolution for spacecraft and drop pod attacks?
A: The spacecraft rules state that Planetfall occurs after the spacecraft fires. Each formation is placed and scattered (and any dismounting decisions made) before moving to the next planetfall formation. The SM Drop Pod rules state that the Deathwind attacks occur after the formation has been placed but before the marines dismount, so those attacks would "interrrupt" the placement order. Drop Pods are placed sequentially after the previous pod and deathwind have been resolved.

So that's 1) Spacecraft attacks, 2) Place and scatter Drop Pod, 3) Deathwind attacks, Repeat 2 and 3 as needed. The spacecraft player may choose the order in which the planetfalling formations are resolved. Note, this does allow a certain level of "peeling the onion" as Deathwind attacks can clear the way for follow-on formations.

Keep in mind the effects of casualties and BMs are resolved at the end of the spacecraft's activation, i.e. formations do not break in the middle of a wave of drop pod attacks. While this keeps a formation from being able to retreat, it also means that the Marine player may not use their drop pod placement to try to catch broken formations in order to get the "hackdown" kills from blast markers on broken formations.


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 Post subject: Re: FAQ update.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 3:40 pm 
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Whilst I may not totally agree with them all I do agree that the wording is clear!

Nice job.


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 Post subject: Re: FAQ update.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 4:07 pm 
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I assume that the barrage ruling should also be applied to Drop Pod and War Engine critical hit explosion hits on nearby units, being as neither tells you to use the AP/AT shooting attack system of hit allocation.

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 Post subject: Re: FAQ update.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 4:52 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
I assume that the barrage ruling should also be applied to Drop Pod and War Engine critical hit explosion hits on nearby units, being as neither tells you to use the AP/AT shooting attack system of hit allocation.

Yes. Added.

Do you think it needs separate notes in the respective sections?


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 Post subject: Re: FAQ update.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 4:57 pm 
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Can't hurt to do so, I guess.

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