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Resin vs metal

 Post subject: Resin vs metal
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 1:42 pm 
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Quote: (Steve54 @ 25 Jul. 2009, 13:29 )

Were the proposed necron sprues plastic? If so they must have a cheaper process

AFAIK Fanatic never intended to make plastic sprues for the Necrons. E:A only had plastic infantry sprues because they were able to re-cut the old E:40k sprues for a few thousand pounds each, instead of creating new sprues.

You can make sprues more cheaply in Zinc, but the detail will burn out eventually, not all that great for Epic...




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 Post subject: Resin vs metal
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 2:42 pm 
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Quote: (Steve54 @ 25 Jul. 2009, 13:29 )

Were the proposed necron sprues plastic? If so they must have a cheaper process

The "Necron" sprue is the "Deathbots/SF Androids" sprue proposed by Wargames Factory:

6mm SF Androids

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 Post subject: Resin vs metal
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 4:42 pm 
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That's some good info. Thanks.

GW's/FW's overheads are simply too high to justify making such detailed sprues for such a low price.


What about if they raise the price? Tyranid sprues go for a lot on eBay.

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 Post subject: Resin vs metal
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:06 pm 
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Quote: (Captsin @ 25 Jul. 2009, 16:42 )

That's some good info. Thanks.

GW's/FW's overheads are simply too high to justify making such detailed sprues for such a low price.


What about if they raise the price? Tyranid sprues go for a lot on eBay.

Set a price point, gauge the likely sales.

Good luck finding some numbers that work out. :))

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 Post subject: Resin vs metal
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:10 pm 
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Quote: (Captsin @ 25 Jul. 2009, 08:42 )

What about if they raise the price? Tyranid sprues go for a lot on eBay.

That's only because Nids are popular, OOP, and finding them on the sprue is ideal.  Besides, people would balk at paying $20-$30 per sprue and complain bitterly.

The best bet for infantry would likely be that new rock-hard resin that E&C said FW mentioned.

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 Post subject: Resin vs metal
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:12 pm 
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It's less rock hard than it is flexiable, in contrast to the brittle (snap-prone) resin that FW have used for infantry in the past.

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 Post subject: Resin vs metal
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:15 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 25 Jul. 2009, 14:42 )

AFAIK Fanatic never intended to make plastic sprues for the Necrons. E:A only had plastic infantry sprues because they were able to re-cut the old E:40k sprues for a few thousand pounds each, instead of creating new sprues.

You can make sprues more cheaply in Zinc, but the detail will burn out eventually, not all that great for Epic...

Because of this i highly suspect that the Siegemasters Infantry was supposed to be the new Steel Legion Infantry for EA.

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 Post subject: Resin vs metal
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 7:11 pm 
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Quote: (Hena @ 25 Jul. 2009, 08:48 )

I think plastic is best for infantry. The details can be very good. For example the old IG guardsman minus the lasgun is good and chaos cultist and beastmen are rather good as well. It's also a lot more sturdy than resin so the units can survive wear and tear.

The old IG make good IG ... heretic ! :O :vD  They look more futuristic then the Vals & Cats !  :vD :;):

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 Post subject: Resin vs metal
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 11:10 pm 
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I was under the impression it was 6 pounds per sprue currently. At 20k thats still over 3 thousand to break even. But of course GW is I thuink getting sprues made somewhat more cheaply than we can. Also how many epic sprues fit in one mould? Say 4 and now you are looking at less than a 1000. Of course then there are cheaper plastic moulds as well, especially if you only expect to make a couple of thousand. All of a sudden its looking a lot more viable financially...




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 Post subject: Resin vs metal
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 11:15 pm 
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Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ 25 Jul. 2009, 23:10 )

I was under the impression it was 6 pounds per sprue currently.

4 small sprues, or 2 large sprues, for £12.

My 20k figure is to have a small sized sprue created to a high standard, for a large sprue you'd be talking considerably more.

...GW is I thuink getting sprues made somewhat more cheaply than we can.

Not really, they can just chuck a lot more money at it. :))

Note they do sprue toolin in-house these days after they invested a few million into plastic tooling tech.

Also how many epic sprues fit in one mould? Say 4 and now you are looking at less than a 1000.
Except having all four of those tools machined would cost you £80,000... what's the point in duplicating a plastic tool?

The advantage of a plastic tool is that it can be used to produce thousands of copies rapidly, why then make four of the same tool?




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 Post subject: Resin vs metal
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 11:17 pm 
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Quote: (Hena @ 25 Jul. 2009, 11:16 )

The amount of money FW made in Epic sales when the news of unit disappearances hit the boards made I think enough money that they could if wanted make a Tau infantry sprue. Which would I think sell pretty well.

As long as F/W used plastic or metal and not fragile resin that would be fine ... However, that ain't gonna happened ...  :no:  No more "touch'm & they crumble" infantry !  :evil:  Another case of "what the Frakk were the toadies at F/W thinking ?!"   :sus:  :upside:

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 Post subject: Resin vs metal
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 11:29 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 25 Jul. 2009, 23:15 )

Except having all four of those tools machined would cost you £80,000... what's the point in duplicating a plastic tool?

The advantage of a plastic tool is that it can be used to produce thousands of copies rapidly, why then make four of the same tool?

Ah - I misunderstand - the cost is for the amount cut? Not for the mould in total? So surface area rather than a fixed amount for 1 square foot or whatever.

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 Post subject: Resin vs metal
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 11:31 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 25 Jul. 2009, 12:07 )

Quote: (Hena @ 25 Jul. 2009, 11:16 )

The amount of money FW made in Epic sales when the news of unit disappearances hit the boards made I think enough money that they could if wanted make a Tau infantry sprue. Which would I think sell pretty well.

The 'Necron' sprue gives a good indication of desire for new Epic sprues (stalled at about 960 pre-payments).

So let's assume that FW would sell 2000 sprues if they released a Tau Infantry sprue, which would sell for £3 per sprue (the same price as SG's infantry sprues sell for).

That would give FW £6000, meaning that they would have made a £14,000 loss, and that's before you even account for production costs.

Without extensive promotion, Epic could never sell enough sprues to make back their investment let alone make a profit, and FW have no need to make that kind of risk when they're making so much money from Warhammer 40,000.

Sorry, it's not at all feasible.

You're dead on again on this one E&C ...  Regardless what some of us would like to see made ... It's about the $$$, if a business, even one that makes Toy Soldiers, does not make profit, they fold ...  Economics 101 ...  :yes:   And I agree the WGF 'Bots, which I think are fine, and pre-ordered 5 sprues, obviously were not dopplegangers for the "N" word. So now getting the magic number of 2000 is moving at a snail's space.  WGF has to make a profit to stay in business ... do the math ... As E&C has done.  :vD  Frankly I firmly believe, I am glad to say, that I'll have E/W Edenites in my hands(which are as close as you're gonna' get to the "N" word), before I even see a WGF 'Bot sprue ... :glare: Any one want to take bets ?   8v) Any one ?  Any one ?  :devil:

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 Post subject: Resin vs metal
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 11:36 pm 
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Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ 25 Jul. 2009, 23:29 )

Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 25 Jul. 2009, 23:15 )

Except having all four of those tools machined would cost you £80,000... what's the point in duplicating a plastic tool?

The advantage of a plastic tool is that it can be used to produce thousands of copies rapidly, why then make four of the same tool?

Ah - I misunderstand - the cost is for the amount cut? Not for the mould in total? So surface area rather than a fixed amount for 1 square foot or whatever.

Yes.

If using a smaller tool, a pre-cut mould insert will be used that will hold the tool in place within the moulding machine.

That way, instead of having to machine a maximum sized tool every time, you can make a small tool that fits in the insert space of a pre-created mould.

Any one want to take bets ?

Nah, I reckon you'd win that one easy L4. :)

GW use a half dozen different insert sizes, at least.




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 Post subject: Resin vs metal
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 11:44 pm 
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Yeah ... I like betting on a sure thing !!  :))  8v)

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