(Emphasis mine}

The notes clearly say that the unit's FF value is macro weapon.  It then follows that any extra attacks added to the unit would also benefit from this ability.

If this note was missing then one would assume that it was weapon specific - as is the case with howling banshees, however it is not.

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Neal

Because that's how the rules work.

Since the character is adding a separate weapon (which gains the extra attack) and this is not a MW in itself, the view is that the extra attack is not MW.

It's not though, as the note explains.  The MW ability is confered to the unit's FF value, hence any extra attacks the unit has would also gain the MW ability.

To put it another way, the exarch gains the FF value of the unit is added to.  Since the note clearly tells us that FDs have MWFF4+ then so too does the exarch.

To quote Chroma from the earlier thread:

That's because the Banshee first strike is on the weapon, while the Warp Spider first strike is in the Notes, and applies to all attacks made by the unit.

That's why I feel that the Fire Dragon Exarch *does* get MW on its extra attack, as a Fire Dragon unit has, essentially, MWFF4+; so any "extra attacks" would be using that stat as well.  Reading the "rules as written" that's what they seem to mean to me.

And I'm wrong, that's the thing.  And the way it's written is poorly done.  

It was not a design intent that a Fire Dragon Exarch give an extra MW attack, just a normal attack; the wording was an over sight from long before I got the project and it was missed in the errata.

Using logic and exact parsing on the words as written, yes, the extra attack should be MW.  By intent, it's not.  House rule it if you like (I know my group does! *laugh*), but in "official" play, it's not MW.

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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

It was not a design intent that a Fire Dragon Exarch give an extra MW attack, just a normal attack; the wording was an over sight from long before I got the project and it was missed in the errata.

I know the intent because I'm the Eldar Champion and I spoke to the Eldar Champion before me.

The Fusion Gun note is "descriptive", it's not actually necessary, but was written there to explain how a MW small arm/close combat weapon worked, without thought to other interactions.

My local group lets the Fire Dragon Exarch take a MW attack... they're fairly popular.  *laugh*  But, honestly, it makes the Fire Dragon Exarch far superiour to all other Exarchs, and that's how I "qualify" it as *not* intended.

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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

Sounds to me like the solution is to fix the document, either the new one that's (hopefully) near to release or the E:A Handbook 2008.

Perhaps putting MW in the FF data cell for affected units would be enough (eg MW4, or even 4* where the * denotes these are MW attacks)? And if this is being fixed, perhaps the various Notes could be brought in-line at the same time?

Just a thought...this issue seems to be a significant bone of contention (and understandably so).

That's fair enough, i suppose.

But if i rock up to tournament and someone tells me that their FD exarch gets an extra MW FF attack and then shows me the rules, which are pretty clear, i can hardly turn around and say:
"Ahhh but Chroma, this guy on the internet who reckons to be the Eldar army champion, something i don't really understand but is apparently something that i hear used to be done back when Jervis gave a toss, told me that isn't right"

without looking like a total frikking idiot now can i?

Again, apologies, Chroma, i have a lot od repect for what you contribute to the community and don't mean any offense but surely you can see where i'm coning from with this.

I would disagree that it makes them superior to all other exarchs.  Warp spider exarchs* get 2x First strike 4+ FF attacks and can infiltrate and scout as well as having superior armour, Swooping hawk exarchs can move 35 cm both on the initial engage move and on the follow up move, as well as having scout, can teleport and have jump packs, DA exarchs have 3 x 4+FF Scorpion exarchs get better armour and 3 x CC4+.  It's all entirely situational.  When assaulting a mechanised guard company would you rather have 2 x MW 4+ or 3x CC 4+ and a better armour save?

Not getting a MW extra attack actually makes them massively inferior to all other exarchs (Barring banshees, which i think we can all agree are pretty underpowered).

I include a couple of firedragon stands with exarchs in my mixed aspect fm, however the other aspect fms i use (Dark reapers/Warp spider & Swooping hawks) come with enough bonuses that i don't feel short changed by not having any FD exarchs in them.

* When i refer to exarchs here i'm including the stand + character.

I would read it that the Notes section describes universal attributes of that unit, so that a character upgrade gets the same attributes (eg. first strike for WS exarchs, jump packs for assault marine characters etc.), whereas the Firepower section describes exactly what attributes that units weapons have.

So, for example, the Firepower of FD in (15cm) is MW, but the Firepower of all ranged Exarchs (FD, hawks, reapers, dire avengers) is +1 EA. If it said +1 EA MW (as the Autarch Firepower stats do) then that extra attack would also be MW, but it doesn't, so it isn't. Much the same as Shining Spear Exarchs don't have "lance" for their +1EA CC, even though the base unit does.

It's pretty much the case that if it says something in the Firepower section, then that weapon of that unit in that situation has that attribute. Otherwise, it doesn't. This also came up with GROOV3R last night, where he was under the opinion that Vindicators have MW in FF, because they have a MW ranged attack - they would only have a MW FF (or CC) attack if there was a separate line in the Firepower section saying (15cm)/(b/c) MW.

Does that make sense?

Oh yeah, I was certainly delighted about my Avatar (now named, thanks to above comments, the Holy Hand Grenade of Ulthwe)

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numquam culum es

Dude, I *completely* see where you're coming from with this... it's the same interpretation *I* had!

But since EPIC is a gentleman's game, I'd rather err on the side of caution than overpower, and, in a tournament, I'd make normal attacks... or, just dicuss and agree with my opponent during the 5 minute warm-up.

If it hadn't been dicussed, and my opponent felt that it was correct as a MW extra attack, again, because EPIC is a gentleman's game, I'd say, "Cool, go for it!", because if a single extra MW attack is going to defeat me, I *deserve* to lose.

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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

Regarding the FD Exarchs I've always played it at UK tournaments, and everybody who has played against me has done the same, that the extra attack is MW

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www.epic-uk.co.uk
NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

Excellent.  Cheers Steve.

- - - and I have not used it in the UK tournaments (nor played Steve recently I might add).    

If we did play each other in a tournament setting I would suggest that we would come to some agreement during the 5 min warm up (or when the question arose) and get on with the game because time is usually very tight.

As Chroma says, it would seem to be unlikely that an extra MW hit in an assault is going to make the difference between winning and losing the game (but then I have not done well with Eldar since Spirit Stones was dropped).

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Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

I see it as the same issue as sniper on the eldar rangers - its not on the weapon its in the notes there fore they get sniper fire fight and sniper close combat as well! unles this was changed in the 2008 errata.

Fire dragon exarchs in 40K generally come with a fire pike so why not say they have MW fire fight?

Phantom

It's covered in the FAQ, sniper only works in FF/CC if it's on a FF/CC weapon, otherwise it's just for shooting.


Fire dragon exarchs in 40K generally come with a fire pike so why not say they have MW fire fight?

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