Does WAAC happen?

Okay to answer the actual question; does WAAC happen at EPIC tournaments within the UK ... Absolutely Not. I can support this argument by the Sportsmanship scores given to players at EPIC UK events.

At a typical 5 game tournament with, say 15 players, there are 600 sportsmanship points available (8 points per game, 8x 5 games = 40 points, 40 points x 15 players = 600 points). At most tournaments the total sports is around 596 / 598. As you can see it doesn't happen or else sportsmanship scores would be lower.

This is why sportsmanship points are in tournaments. Like I said above; sportsmanship is worth 40 points (that's more than you get in one game of a tournament). If you want to win a tournament you can't afford to drop points.

Also I have seen people read their sports scores and reflect; the next tournament you can see an improvement in their attitude.

Black Legion

It's funny to see that the people who don't attend regular tournaments have a problem beating Black Legion. I have no problem beating any Black Legion army (heavily war engine or not). Also Steve54 is right; most Black Legion armies have 3 / 5 war engines; my Space Marines usually have 5 war engines (2 Warhounds and 3 Thunderhawks).

The point I'm trying to make is that I don't think the Black Legion army list is that bad ... I think people need to assess each army they play against and work out how to beat it. In EPIC you have to build an army list which allows you to adapt your tactics to beat different army builds.

Also it's funny how the people who have a problem with Black Legion are the ones who aren’t regular tournament attendees. My advice, go to a couple of tournaments, talk to people and learn new ways of playing and beating the armies you suffer against.


Playing at tournaments

Tournament play is excellent fun; I actually like the challenge of having to build an army to face any race of any build. I love it when I play an opponent and it's a really hard fought close game (it's so satisfying knowing you've played your socks off for 3 hours and managed to win, draw or even loss slightly).

In tournaments you learn new tactics, and (usually after a loss) are able to reflect on what went wrong and how to prevent it (either through tactics or army design).

Why people don't like tournaments

The more I think about it the more I don't think WAAC isn't the problem. In a tournament you're not playing people from the same area of the country, with the same ideas of how a game should be played and the same tactics. You are playing people from all over the country with different interpretations of the rules, different playing styles and different ideas. This is what makes tournaments so fascinating because you are able to see a load of different interpretations that you would never of thought of. However I can see that this could lead to people being annoyed and frustrated as they are used to playing the same way all the time and then *bang* something happens ... can you do that? Is that allowed? etc

Also the players you play. Again they aren’t the same crowd you play at your club every week (and probably have been for years); some are very quiet when they play, some are very noisy and all have different sense of humours (STUPID GAME!). At work you have clashes of personalities and there is nothing to say that this doesn't happen at tournaments. I believe this can also cause a problem; however again, meeting and talking to people from different parts of the country (different jobs, backgrounds and cultures) is great.

Friendly Vs Tournament games

This actually makes me laugh ... you say at tournaments people want to win the game. Well in a friendly game don't you also want to win? Do you go to your gaming club every week thinking "Hey, lets loose tonight"  

No you don't ... I play exactly the same whether in a tournament or friendly and I'm sure other people do as well.

Also I find friendly gaming abit more WAAC sometimes. I arrange a game at my club, say what list I'm taking and find my opponent has build an army to deal with that as best he can (not really very friendly and would happen at tournaments as you don't know who, or what, you will be playing).

Summary

Tournaments can be one of the best experiences in wargaming. However to get that experience you need to be open, embrace different playing styles that your not used to and most important learn from others. Look at your own play and see how you can improve, what you can do differently ... watch other games and talk to other people.

Core that's long!

Hope your all still awake  

Over to you guy's!

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Except that when Black Legion were in their first year they only won 33% of their games... as people have learned how to use the Black Legion list this win percentage has edged up to the 64% Zombocom listed.

Black Legion results have gotten better over time, not worse.

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I believe the complaints happen for two main reasons:

- The Black Legion War Engines (Especially the 'Feral' Titan) are too good for their points.

- The army list is supposed to be a Black Legion army list, not a Titan Legion army list... therefore you'd expect the majority of the units to be Black Legion Marines. The fact that the army list even allows the construction of an army that looks like this is a design failure, regardless of balance... because that's not a Black Legion army, it's a Chaos Titan Legion with tank support.



Please keep volatile words such as 'wail and moan' out of the debate. We are all mature people here and we don't need to use insults.

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As initially BL players struggled as they got to grips with the intricacies of the list - I know my first list had 20 daemons!, then when they had gone through the trial+error necessary to use the list players who hadn't much experience against it struggled - a process which has now evened out.

The fact remains that nobody has done better with the BL than when useing other lists and it has only won 2 tournaments.

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That 7 WE list is a one-off which I believe Tim took to see how far the theme could be taken - if he had come up against an air assault heavy list or most IG lists he would have had real difficulties, which is a problem that befalls nearly all min-max armies.

All BL armies that have come in the top 3 in tourneys have had 3-4 WEs and at least 2 retinues - which I can't see is a fluff problem.
As to the WEs themsleves the Feral is very limited except at very close range so players who know about it keep it at arms-length where it is ineffective. Like the warhound it is also easy to kill - though the warhound is a far better all-round unit.
The death wheel is poorly gunned and is best used as a FF assault unit - even then the fatal critical is an issue. I can't see how it is worth any more than its points.
The decimator is also very limited except at close range and has little speed to manouvre there, whenever I have used it it has been very vulnerable to sniping from aircraft and has real difficulties getting into range to be effectivley used.

IMHO moving the assault co. to the titan allocation solves many of the issues that most people have with the list.

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NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

Apologies if that came off badly!

I agree that it shouldn't be possible to build an army like that using the Black Legion list, and I think steps have/will be taken to prevent it (as Steve has said).

I think most people who have been following these threads know my opinion of whether WAAC exists in Epic tournaments. IMO the answer is largely no. IMHO any folk who has the opposite opinion might want to look at the evidence in a dispassionate way. After that they might want to adjust their opinion.

Exploring the topic a little further. Matt O is correct that every plays Epic, at least the tournament scenario, with a view to winning. Playing and having a great time first, winning second.

Why?
Because it's perfectly possible. The tournament scenario and army lists are designed to be balanced for competitive games. One wants to win because it's achievable. Only skill and a little luck are required.

Those who are not interested in winning might have better fun with scenarios or historical re-fights than the tournament scenario. The idea here is to just fight it out and see what happens: to witness and take part in the cool experience. Historical re-fights usually are uneven affairs. Is it possible, given the situation given for the underdog to pull off success? This can be discussed and explored with your opponent throughout the game as an intellectual exercise. Alternately it can be played in a more competitive manner. If you can win as the underdog then you can demonstrate your prowess is both better than your opponent, and that of the general who fought the real battle in the first place.

Back on to the subject of the tournament scenario, it must be remembered that the lists provided are all fluffy to the core. The Codex list, I believe, demonstrates this more than any other.
So closely does it stick to the fluff that it is actually incompatible with the core game mechanics. Thus TSNNF had to be invented!

While it is possible to create chedder out of any list in most cases whether a list is chedder or not is actually highly debatable.

Themed army constructions out of the base list can be under-competitive. They cripple themselves slightly by restricting choices that make sense from a combined arms point of view. (This is perhaps demonstrated in a formal fashion by some of the themed derived lists. Speed Freaks, White Scars are examples.) In a sense themed constructs are no more fluffy than the list from which they where made. And if they are crippled, this is only because an army list doesn't exist that adequately marries the theme with the combined arms options that are needed. One is forced to use an imperfect list for the idea one has in mind.

Anyway, enough rambling from me. I've gotta do some actual work. Have fun ye-all.

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Partially Not.

I have met Commissariat Warhounds, and I have played TRC (Who only plays in a self-avowed WAAC style even in friendly games)!

Compared to other GW game systems? No.
Compared to 'friendly' games of Epic? 20% Yes.

I can support this argument by the Sportsmanship scores given to players at EPIC UK events...

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I would debate that.

Sure the Feral Titan's Macro-Weapon will only hit on 5's against vehicles, but it will normally have much more than 2 attacks against vehicles, and can fire every turn. Versus infantry it is incredibly powerful (Ignoring cover modifiers, cover saves, and armour saves, it can Double anywhere and still reliably shoot into cover, unlike a Warhound Titan).

In addition its secondary gun (4x AP4+/AT4+) is better than the Warhound Titan's secondary gun (4x AP3+/AT5+).

Futher to that, it's also better in a firefight situation as its counter-charge always allows it to bring its battle head to bear on the attackers.

I believe the Feral Titan to be the superior all-round unit.

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Please read 'My Opinion', and my reply to Matthew Otter's 'Friendly Vs Tournament games', two posts above.

It's not about winning, it's about the nature of the environment.

Simply saying that non-tournament players 'aren't interested in winning' is doing them a great disservice, just as much as calling all tournament players 'WAAC style players' is an insulting disservice.

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A friendly game is normally marked by the following:

- Both players discussing the game as it goes along and often giving each other tactical advice.
- Army list builds that are not fully optimised 'for the win'.
- A cooperative atmosphere.
- Freedom to change rules that both players feel are unrealistic, underpowered or overpowered
- Freedom to use your favourite NetERC army list.


A tournament game is normally marked by the following:

- Both players keeping their tactical thoughts a complete secret.
- Army list builds fully optimised.
- An adversarial atmosphere.
- Freedom to bend rules to your advantage despite the spirit of the rules
- You may only use a small selection of army lists (Slowly growing)

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Simply saying that non-tournament players 'aren't interested in winning' is doing them a great disservice, just as much as calling all tournament players 'WAAC style players' is an insulting disservice.

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Partially Not.

I have met Commissariat Warhounds, and I have played TRC (Who only plays in a self-avowed WAAC style even in friendly games)!

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The more I think about the more I feel this topic should be closed.

At the end of the day, tournaments and home/club gaming require different styles of gaming. Neither is better, or worse, that the other ... it's just different.

Wouldn't the world be boring if we were all the same.

Please close this thread

Thank you

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www.epic-uk.co.uk

EPIC UK - Improving and Enhancing Epic gaming in the UK

chairman@epic-uk.co.uk