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E:A  Rise of the Dracon
Vermis
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:33 pm 
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(consectari @ Jul. 20 2006,19:42)
QUOTE
our resident WFB Liz expert

Translation: 'the guy who has two army books'. :p

If we MUST go w/ only WE skimmers, then we HAVE to look elsewhere.


The point I tried to make with the DC1 suggestion is that it would largely be a formality, so people don't wonder why AVs (if small/medium skimmers are to be AVs. ?Too many ifs at this stage...) are part of the titan allowance.
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consectari
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:46 am 
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Yeah, need to pin things down.  

Need to talk to Ilushia and orangesm.  

They seem to be our main contributers.  

Find out how attached they are to certain ideas and where they are flexible.  

Then we can work out a compromise.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 4:51 am 
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I should point out that the only proxies I use at present are my Vorace for Knights Lancer... And they're almost exactly the right size, they're very slightly shorter then Knights Paladin and significantly 'deeper', so are roughly the same  total size. The 'small vehicles as WE' doesn't bother me AT ALL, because almost all the War Engines in the game current are already under-sized! No these things aren't as big as Titans, I get that. But how do they look next to, say, a Baneblade or a Shadowsword? The Warhound is only barely larger then the Knights are and is 3DC instead of 1DC. Neal? Could you get us a comparison shot of a Baneblade next to, say, a Leman Russ and a Wave Serpent? I've seen the Wave Serpents on the field and they're really not all that small. If I lay my Warhound model down on the table they're almost as long as it is tall. And the models from DRM are significantly thicker then they are (Or at least they seem to be) and much more 'solid' all the way around.
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consectari
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:00 am 
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If no one comes up w/ a comparison photo, I can provide one tomorrow evening w/ baneblade, russ, wave serpent, and the kray gerresh and gara skimmers.

Gerresh- 32mm long, body 15mm wide (22mm wide at engine tips), height 10mm at engines, about 8mm for main body

Gara- 28mm long, body 14mm wide (18mm wide at engines) height 8mm for body, 21mm w/ teleport array.

Wave Serpent is 38mm long, 43mm counting gun tip, 29mm wide at the widest part, 11mm high at top of turret (which is only 1 or 2 mm high itself).

A bit larger than the Gerresh

The Gara is near russ size

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consectari
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:02 am 
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they're very slightly shorter then Knights Paladin and significantly 'deeper'


If this is the case, then perhaps our Carnosaur should be the WE. ?Our equiv. of the Warhound.




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Vermis
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 10:24 am 
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(Ilushia @ Jul. 21 2006,04:51)
QUOTE
The 'small vehicles as WE' doesn't bother me AT ALL, because almost all the War Engines in the game current are already under-sized!

So you've said, many, many times. :laugh: ?But... if the small/medium skimmers are not great big DC3 WE in 'titan scale', is it possible they're just decently-sized AV in regular epic scale?

As I see myself saying many, many times: do they need to be DC3, or even DC2? ?(The best [only?] reason I can see is "because they're small." ?This is why I'm becoming so perplexed.) ?Do a lot of things need to be WE?

The vorace, for example. ?You can compare it to knights and warhounds until you're blue in the face, but it doesn't mean the vorace is in 'titan scale', or - since knight and warhound minis are so teeny - that it's even that big. ?From where I'm sitting it's not too much bigger than the kray light skimmers.

Also: the AdMech list I have is v2. ?I assume it's the most recent version, as I can't find any other. ?In it, half the knight variants are DC1. ?They are AV, for all intents and purposes, that have a limited sniping effect in CC. ?Unless someone has gone and 'improved' the WE rules when I wasn't looking.

In case you haven't guessed, I'm starting to get a bit narked. ?There's something about being coerced into hunting for alternative sources of AV minis when you've got the original, perfectly reasonable choices in front of you, because of some (frankly) confusing conclusions about what should and shouldn't be a WE, that doesn't sit well with me at all.
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Ilushia
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 11:47 am 
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If you want to make them AVs that's fine. I just don't think there's a reason to do so just on the grounds that the models feel too small. Right now the light tank is an AV in what I've got. But that still leaves the question of 'What fills in for their SHT-equivs? Do they FIELD SHT-equivs? And how do the now-non-WE Old-One vehicles get the right feel to them without being too powerful individually?' I could change it around, make them more like the Monolith is for the Necrons somehow. Very durable AV with specially built weapons/equipment fielded in small groups... But then there's a question of survivability and cost. Giving them very high-powered weapons and only normal-level defenses then putting them into small formations doesn't sit right with me. 3-strong formations break rediculously easily. I wouldn't make them formations less then 5 (Which was my plan with the current 'light' tank of the group, which is quite fragile but has a really nice main gun.) So... What do you recommend we do do with these units of not make them WE?
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ragnarok
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:32 pm 
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I've only looked though the list quickly, and it looks very good.

My only problem with it is the shear number of old one vehichles and they don't seem that old oneish.

I don't think that they should be smaller than WEs.  The smaller machines should be Dracon constructions.

Also (sort of stealing from the eldar and necrons here) why don't you have a temple as a WE.  Some massive 0cm speed construct that must be deployed near an objective, to represent other armies raiding them for old one technology.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:57 pm 
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Well, right now there are lots of KINDS of old-one vehicles. The actual number you can field is up in the air at present. There's veriety there, numbers is another issue altogether.
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consectari
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:44 pm 
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'What fills in for their SHT-equivs?


This is like the 3rd time I've said this. ?Between the Kray and the Andys there are at least 3 SHT sized vehicles. ?

The Arkalest
The Arkator could be an SHT instead of a bomber if we want it to
The Varkator
The Vertex (HUGE $20 just for 1!)


We seem to each be flogging a different dead horse here. ?I liked the idea of having several diff OO WE options and yes except for size, the kray vehicles fit nicely. ?

Problem is, Epic isn't just a 2 or 3 or 4 person system. ?Others may want to use these rules. ?If YOU use these rules, you WILL be using them against someone else and those people MUST be taken into consideration.

It's hard not to think "this is what I think and there's no reason to change it", but that's an attitude that must be tempered with flexibility. ?If you want to use the stats the existing way and can find someone willing to accept it, there is no reason there can't be a second version, "house rules" if you will, for your own personal use. ?

None of this is ever going to be official anyway. ?It's all house rules, so everyone CAN have what they want, just in a diff. version. ?

I know our feedback isn't extensive, but it hasn't been good. ?

And it's not like we're giving up "Pure" ?OO vehicles, we're just limiting them a bit more. ?We have 3, could add a 4th and easily find a good proxy for it.

After all, with no titans, the Xlan are going to need some good WE.

I don't like the thought of asking someone to give up something they feel is correct, but we aren't just working for us, this may benefit the whole Epic community.




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Ilushia
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:33 pm 
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I'm just not seeing why you feel these are too small... Having just actually measured the dimensions on a Warhound they stand ~35mm tall, 25mm deep and 25mm wide. The Aurika, Gerresh and Arka all are roughly 30mm long, 20mm wide and 20mm high. The Arkelash is roughly 40mm long by 25mm wide and 20mm tall. They're almost the same dimensions as a Warhound, slightly smaller, it's just that the warhound is verticle while they are horizontal. The Gara seems to be about the same size as the rest of the tanks in all the comparison shots I've seen... So I just can't see why you proclaim them as being 'too small' to be war engines. Yes, they're smaller then a Warhound, but the extra-tough designs of the Old Ones could easily be seen as making up for that, hence being DC 3 war engines for most of them with the Arkelash being larger (The thing IS about 30% longer and 25% wider after all. Roughly 1.6x total size, easily able to be seen as DC 4-DC 5.) It isn't that I don't understand your perspective as being a 'What will other people think?' idea... But if other people can accept Warhounds being roughly that size then why not SHTs that size?
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consectari
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:34 pm 
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Ragnarok: ? they don't seem that old oneish.


Any chance of getting more input on this? ?In your opinion, what could be done to make them seem more appropriate?

ragnarok: why don't you have a temple as a WE. ?Some massive 0cm speed construct that must be deployed near an objective

We have a "Great Temple" WE. ?The concept of an Aztec style flying temple came from Vermis and Ilushia set up the stats. ?It's not 0cm move, but I really like it!

Edit:

Concept drawings for 2 versions, by Vermis

stats

Flying Temple

Move: 20cm. Type: WE. Armor: 4+. CC: 6+. FF: 3+.

Weapons Range Firepower Notes
4x Battle Heads (15cm) Small Arms MW, EA +1
Eye of Slann 120cm MW3+ TK(D3)
OR 120cm AA4+ TK(D3)
Wrath of Old 60cm 4BP MW, Ignore Cover.

DC 8. Critical: The ancient powers which hold the vessel aloft are overcome for a brief moment. The Temple drifts D6cm in a random direction, if it comes into contact with impassable terrain or an enemy base it stops immediately. At the end of this move every unit (including the Temple!) within 5cm of the temple takes an automatic MW hit as the temple crashes to the ground. The repair systems onboard will fix the damage before the vessel's next move.

Notes: Skimmer, Reinforced Armor, Thick Rear Armor, Fearless, Regenerate, Battlescreen, Transport (May carry up to 16 of the following: Skinks, Chameleon Skinks, Saurus, Saurus Guards, Kroxigores, Kroxigore Assault Machines or Light Battle Walkers. Kroxigore Assault Machines and Light Battle Walkers take up 2 spaces each.)




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consectari
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 4:17 pm 
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The Aurika, Gerresh and Arka all are roughly 30mm long, 20mm wide and 20mm high


These ?height and width figures are quite inaccurate. ?I personally measured mine.

The Gerresh and Arka appear to have been built on the same chasis. ?

As I posted above:
Gerresh- 32mm long, body 15mm wide (22mm wide at engine tips), height 10mm at engines, about 8mm for main body

The majority of the body is only 15mm wide. ?The engines flare at the very back to a max width of 22mm. ?Height is only 8mm (enignes are only 2mm more) before the turret which is 2-3mm for the Arka and 6-7mm for the Gerresh. ?

Turrets go on the body not the engines giving a max height of 11mm & 15mm, not that the turret should really count anyway.

The Gara is smaller, prob. built on the Aurika chasis.

Gara- 28mm long, body 14mm wide (18mm wide at engines) height 8mm for body, 21mm w/ teleport array.

The teleport array is a small doorway. ?Not a significant addition to bulk. though it adds alot of height. ?The body is what needs to be considered and this is only 8mm!

None of these come close to the size of a wave serpent, which admittedly, is a little large. ?All are out bulked by a Land Raider. ?The Gara is about the size of a Russ, the other 2 a little longer.

The DRM guy is a big epic fan. ?He clearly designed these vehicles to be compatible with epic. ?They are not even close to the common SHT size.


As I stated above, this should be a moot point. ?Design 4 WE for the list and 4 AV skimmers for the list. ?You use what proxies you prefer, others can use what proxies they prefer. ?It is as simple as that. ?I see no reason this should continue to be an issue.

We wanted WE variety, this will give it to us. ?We needed more AV to fill out this list, this will give it to us.

We need to vote on this. ?

The 4 main contributors must be heard from. ?
Ilushia, Vermis, orangesm, and Consectari. ?

Anyone else may vote if they wish and will be counted. ?

If all 4 main contributors have not voted in 24 hours, they will be PM'd and prompted to do so.




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consectari
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 4:19 pm 
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The vote at hand.

Should we have 4 WE and 4 primary AV skimmers.  Using your choice of proxies.

Please vote Yea or Nay.

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consectari
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 4:22 pm 
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Consectari votes yea

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