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Good Idea for Tyranid Node Model
nealhunt
 Post subject: Good Idea for Tyranid Node Model
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:17 pm 
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The role of Epic and the rest of SG is basically to provide a depth of experience.  They offer different interaction with the GW universe that can keep more experienced gamers involved.

I can say, for instance, that I have 2 40K armies primarily because I like Epic and the universe, but it's just so much easier to find a 40K game.

It's a similar concept to a "loss leader" in retail.

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Grimshawl
 Post subject: Good Idea for Tyranid Node Model
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:56 pm 
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Nealhunt I see what your saying, but I am also involved in 40k and at least to me it seems like GWs policies dont match up with this view/policy, they tend not to take care of or try to retain their Veteran Gamers. Thats just my experiences and that of other people I know and talk to, but I think it is fairly acurate.
A seperate issue that bugs me is it seems like SGs are kept in a dark closet somewhere, or at least treated that way in America by GW, I mean not only are they not kept in the stores, but often they are not even advertised in stores. If you want your product to sell people need to be made aware of it, and I think GW  does a really poor job of this.

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Good Idea for Tyranid Node Model
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 5:04 pm 
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Grim, for 40k, keep in mind the target audience. GW doesn't want the veteran players, because they have already bought a ton of minis. GW wants the newbie teenagers who are starting from scratch in building armies.

As far as epic is concerned, I think GW's philosophy right now is to see how much profit it can make with as little investment as possible. Avoid the pitfall of applying logic to GW! ?:laugh: Also, I think GW views all SG games as ways of increasing 40k sales. There are few people like me who only play Epic and have never played 40k.




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Grimshawl
 Post subject: Good Idea for Tyranid Node Model
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 5:51 pm 
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your right to warn me about applying Logic to GW, thats good advice, my head was throbing.
call me dull but I never have understood how anyone targeting an audience or demographic can adequately explain also trying to exclude or drive off other customers. Not specificly cater to I can understand, but actively try to drive off is something altogether.

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primarch
 Post subject: Good Idea for Tyranid Node Model
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:04 pm 
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Quote (nealhunt @ 28 2005 June,11:17)
The role of Epic and the rest of SG is basically to provide a depth of experience. ?They offer different interaction with the GW universe that can keep more experienced gamers involved.

I can say, for instance, that I have 2 40K armies primarily because I like Epic and the universe, but it's just so much easier to find a 40K game.

It's a similar concept to a "loss leader" in retail.

Hi!

I agree with Neal. All non-core games are merely a portal to get people playing their more lucrative core games. Even if a game like epic doesnt make money on the level they desire, if it produces players who cross over to play core games it may be worth their while.

The more worthwhile question is ARE they getting such a crossover to make these ventures worthwhile?

I dont no the answer, but my gut tells me - NO.

Primarch

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primarch
 Post subject: Good Idea for Tyranid Node Model
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:08 pm 
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Quote (Dwarf Supreme @ 28 2005 June,12:04)
Grim, for 40k, keep in mind the target audience. GW doesn't want the veteran players, because they have already bought a ton of minis. GW wants the newbie teenagers who are starting from scratch in building armies.

As far as epic is concerned, I think GW's philosophy right now is to see how much profit it can make with as little investment as possible. Avoid the pitfall of applying logic to GW! ?:laugh: Also, I think GW views all SG games as ways of increasing 40k sales. There are few people like me who only play Epic and have never played 40k.

Hi!

Correct!

SG = more players to port over to core games.

GW IS their core games. All is is just dressing to get people to play those.

Of course we could talk about WHY epic isnt a core game anymore.....

...but I gather you'll all heard the reasons more than enough time from me....  :;):

Primarch

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primarch
 Post subject: Good Idea for Tyranid Node Model
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:13 pm 
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Quote (Grimshawl @ 28 2005 June,12:51)
your right to warn me about applying Logic to GW, thats good advice, my head was throbing.
call me dull but I never have understood how anyone targeting an audience or demographic can adequately explain also trying to exclude or drive off other customers. Not specificly cater to I can understand, but actively try to drive off is something altogether.

Hi!

Thats easy.

Younger audience usually means less attention span, thus they drop out of the hobby after a short, but furious shopping spree they leave for something else. The cycle commences again with another newbie.

Older gamers who stick around a long time have lots of stuff, buy less, warn newbies about GW "scams" and are generally resistant to change (be it justified or not).

This is so true that I have seen GW propaganda to US store owners that specifically warns store owners to "disuade" veterans from hanging around the store. I wish I would have kept a copy of that. It speaks volumes of GW's market strategy.

So for GW it IS profitable to alienate a segment of their consumer base. Only time will tell if in the long run it was a good strategy or not.

Primarch

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Good Idea for Tyranid Node Model
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:20 pm 
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Quote (primarch @ 28 2005 June,21:08)
Of course we could talk about WHY epic isnt a core game anymore.....

...but I gather you'll all heard the reasons more than enough time from me.... ?:;):

Actually, I haven't heard why epic is no longer a core game. Please enlighten me.

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primarch
 Post subject: Good Idea for Tyranid Node Model
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:31 pm 
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Hi!

hehe, I just LOVE to talk about that.... :;):

The short answer is Epic 40k, the third edition of epic.

Without going into the merits of the game (which would be a topic of much debate in it of itself... :;): ), from a pure sales perspective, to put it mildly, it flopped.

Six months from that games release, GW pretty much dropped support leaving players of such armies like chaos and tyranids without a reliable source of minis.

Within two years of its release, for the first time in its history epic became out of print.

Epic went from a core game to no game. It has NEVER recovered. Attempts have been made, but GW has never put into epic the backing second edition had or even third edition for that matter.

Now, excluding perceptions regarding the game itself, I would say its a fair assessment to say that it was "mostly" GW's fault the game tanked. They didnt read the market appropriately on how players would react to the changes (which included eliminating squats...) nor did they market and distribute the game effectively beyond the initial box set.

This is the "short" version. But I think I got what most people would agree on.

Of course if you wanted to get into game related reasons for its failure.... then it gets more "interesting"..... :;):

Primarch

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Good Idea for Tyranid Node Model
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:40 pm 
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Quote (primarch @ 28 2005 June,21:31)
This is the "short" version. But I think I got what most people would agree on.

Of course if you wanted to get into game related reasons for its failure.... then it gets more "interesting"..... :;):

I know why I don't like Epic40k, but what are the "game related" reasons for its failure?

Primarch, if you want to PM me with the answer instead of posting here in the forum, feel free.

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primarch
 Post subject: Good Idea for Tyranid Node Model
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:55 pm 
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Hi!

Quite alright, the reasons are not secret... :;):

In the simplest form, the game seemed not to please a lot of the old epic players becuase they changed "too much". That of course is subjective, some DID like the changes. For those who didnt the most often quoted things are:

1. Flavorless - they found that the elimination of all the loveable (and extremely wacky) special rules made units bland and uninspiring. Orks didnt have those wierd rules where equipment performed spectacularly or blew up in your face. Chaos had no individual unique powers. Insipid.

2. Too streamlined - while abstraction may be a good thing most of the time, it was felt by quite a few that abstracting armor, saving throws, weapon types went to far. One could debate endlessly what this scale should represent, but those who didnt like it, like me, didnt like that level of abstraction

3. Blast markers - cool concept, lousy implementation. Many specially didnt like that you could suppress weapons on titans thus rendering them useless this way. Too easy to incapacitate formations via blast markers. Realistic? Maybe. But not fun in the view of some.

Those of what I remember of the top of my head. Back in the days of the great version flame wars I could fill pages with minute nit-picky details of why I thought it stunk. No point in beating that dead horse anymore though.

In the end why it "failed" had more to do with player perception than with any tangible reality of the game itself. It failed becuase more people thought it wasnt an improvement over the previous system than those who thought it was. Add GW's atrocious marketing to it and you get an enormous flop.

Primarch

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Good Idea for Tyranid Node Model
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 10:00 pm 
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Quote (primarch @ 28 2005 June,21:55)
Hi!

Quite alright, the reasons are not secret... :;):

In the simplest form, the game seemed not to please a lot of the old epic players becuase they changed "too much". That of course is subjective, some DID like the changes. For those who didnt the most often quoted things are:

1. Flavorless - they found that the elimination of all the loveable (and extremely wacky) special rules made units bland and uninspiring. Orks didnt have those wierd rules where equipment performed spectacularly or blew up in your face. Chaos had no individual unique powers. Insipid.

2. Too streamlined - while abstraction may be a good thing most of the time, it was felt by quite a few that abstracting armor, saving throws, weapon types went to far. One could debate endlessly what this scale should represent, but those who didnt like it, like me, didnt like that level of abstraction

3. Blast markers - cool concept, lousy implementation. Many specially didnt like that you could suppress weapons on titans thus rendering them useless this way. Too easy to incapacitate formations via blast markers. Realistic? Maybe. But not fun in the view of some.

Those of what I remember of the top of my head. Back in the days of the great version flame wars I could fill pages with minute nit-picky details of why I thought it stunk. No point in beating that dead horse anymore though.

In the end why it "failed" had more to do with player perception than with any tangible reality of the game itself. It failed becuase more people thought it wasnt an improvement over the previous system than those who thought it was. Add GW's atrocious marketing to it and you get an enormous flop.

Primarch

Those are pretty much the reasons I don't like it! ? :p ?There are a few things I do like about it. I always thought the minis were really nice. Nice, but overpriced. You're right though, no point in beating a dead horse! ?}:) Thanks, P!




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primarch
 Post subject: Good Idea for Tyranid Node Model
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 10:04 pm 
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Hi!

I agree the minis of the era of very good, better than the old ones. I have an unusual amount of them since GW started dumping them at 2-3 dollars a blisters after the game flopped.

I think most who didnt like the rules quoted the same reasons. Whether they be bonafide reasons or just a bad perception is immaterial. Its a game, you either like and play it or you dont.

The Dont's won. The game died.

Pretty simple.

Primarch

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Tas
 Post subject: Good Idea for Tyranid Node Model
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 1:24 am 
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I always thought the minis were really nice. Nice, but overpriced.


But thats no different to now DS! ???

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primarch
 Post subject: Good Idea for Tyranid Node Model
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 2:25 am 
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Quote (Tas @ 28 2005 June,20:24)
I always thought the minis were really nice. Nice, but overpriced.


But thats no different to now DS! ???

Hi!

It seems that no matter what time frame we speak of this statement is always true....

...really nice minis, but overpriced.  :;):

Primarch

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