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Imperial Logistics/Artillery
CyberShadow
 Post subject: Imperial Logistics/Artillery
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 2:45 pm 
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Does anyone have any information on Imperial logistics and/or artillery divisions? I wondered how they actually work.

Are these two operations performed by the same divisions, or are there two different administrations/units? I thought that I would expand the background of my Imperial Guard Epic force (in case it ever gets put together!) to be the artillery convoy/logistics division, with formations split off for defence.

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asaura
 Post subject: Imperial Logistics/Artillery
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 3:59 pm 
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I have sometimes wondered about the same things. However, I doubt anyone at GW has written anything meaningful about the subject.

The Imperium holds a virtual monopoly on human starships. In effect, the "Imperium rules the skies". Planetary governments handle their own petty rebellions and the like. When Imperial-level forces fight, they get there with a starship. Ditto for their supply and combat service support functions. The primary exception is conducting a defence on an industrial world, where most supply can be produced on-world.

Let's first consider an IG regiment. What do they eat when they are garrisoned somewhere? Presumably, they eat local food, produced by locals and distributed by the Imperial bureaucracy. When they ship out on a starship, they eat from the ship's stores. When they land, what do they eat?

Food is pretty easy to come by. What about spare parts, medical care, repairs, ammunition? Presumably, the regiment is pretty much on their own. Once the regiment is transported away from their founding world, it can not rely on a supply route. There are no Krieg ships transporting Krieg stuff to Krieg regiments. There are just some Krieg regiments who have Krieg stuff because they've had it since their founding. If they've come across spare parts, they have probably come from someplace foreign.

Now, military units do require supply in order to remain functional. The Imperium, given it's size and the scope of operations, could resolve this simply by using IG regiments as one-shot weapons. Found it, ship it, make it fight, forget it. Apparently, this is not the case. After conducting a short combat op, a regiment will have to be somehow resupplied. Ditto for keeping it in the field during a prolonged campaign.

One solution is to produce standard "regimental supply kits", which would contain everything from tank spares to fuel to food to ammunition and radio batteries and blood and so forth. A relatively simple standardized scheme could work well enough to keep the regiments running hundreds of light-years away from home.

IG regiments seem to have no operational-level assets, such as wheeled transports or engineers and so on. Presumably, the IG does have some "corps-level" unit skeletons it uses to run an operation. There's just no fluff on them -- everything is just up to regiments.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Imperial Logistics/Artillery
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 4:48 pm 
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I'd recomend reading Imperial Armour I and Imperial Armour III... those two books will answer just about any question on organisation or logistics which you might have (Every quibble asura has is resolved in them, for example one of the regiments deployed to Taros was a logistics regiment)

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Elias
 Post subject: Imperial Logistics/Artillery
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 6:42 pm 
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The recently published Tactica Imperialis also gives some answers. On page 59 are charts for an Army Group, Intervention Group and Battle Group. But these are only examples.

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hotwire
 Post subject: Imperial Logistics/Artillery
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 7:44 pm 
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the rules are illogical..Artillery should come in divisions that move separate to the rest of the army..as another unit composed of a set of "troops"

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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Imperial Logistics/Artillery
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 9:04 pm 
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I'll second the recommendation for IA3, there's quite a bit about the internal politics of getting a large, combined force organized and deployed.

Indeed, one of the pivotal moments of the Taros Campaign was when the Imperium failed to capture the large Water processing plant.

Hotwire, I beg to differ.  Artillery in the US is a permanent part of the Division now, although it wasn't so in the past.  US Cavalry units have Regimental artillery that's a permanent part of their organization (and have since their creation), as do the US Marines (although the USMC probably adopted the idea from the Cav).  It actually makes more sense for each IG Regiment to 'own' their own artillery, since there's no guarantee that they will have any support beyond what they bring with them in their own transport.  I will admit it is a larger challenge logistically speaking, but as far as use in combat goes, it's better to have your own artillery.

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tchristney
 Post subject: Imperial Logistics/Artillery
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 10:09 pm 
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I seem to remember something in the older fluff about factory ships that traveled with the IG on campaign. Of course, this could be a false memory implanted by the multitude of Sci-Fi that I read. ???  :alien:
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orangesm
 Post subject: Imperial Logistics/Artillery
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 10:50 pm 
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I would say that each Regiment - even an Infantry Regiment is going to have a few companies of Artillery.
For me I break Regiments down into Battalions (Majors and Lt Colonels need jobs too).
My basic format for any Regiment is 2-4 Battalions of what the Regiment is, 2-4 Supporting Battalions. Ex Mech Inf Regiment - 2 Mech Inf Battalions, 1 Armoured Battalion, 1 Artillery Battalion, 1 Super-Heavy Battalion, 1 Recon Battalion.  For the Mechanized Infantry the Mech Inf and Armoured Battalion are the main fighting force of the Regiment while the Recon, Artillery and Super-Heavy Battalions are normally in a supporting role.  The 1st Mech Inf Battalion is more likely to operate as a unit on the Battlefield and act as Battlegroup commanders (the Lt Colonel).  The Artillery Commander is a more logistical commander determining how best to utilize his units in support of the main Battalions.

For the Infantry Regiment the Artillery Battalion would probably be 2-3 Companies of Artillery Platform with a Company of Anti Air Platform and a Battalion HQ.
A Mech Inf Regiment would have a similar Artillery Battalion, but instead of Platforms they would have mobile versions.
An Armoured Regiment would be the same as the Mech Inf or it may sacrifice an Artillery Company for a second Anti Air Company.
An Airborne Regiment would not have an Artillery Battalion - it also would have a different structure to the 3 main regiments.
An Artillery/Mobile Artillery Regiment would have 2-3 Artillery Battalions with a supporting Infantry/Mech Inf Battalion or two and maybe an Armored Battalion.

But that is how I structure my Regiments.

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Elias
 Post subject: Imperial Logistics/Artillery
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 9:12 am 
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From the Tactica Imperialis page 57: "Furthermore, where in the dark times the regiments had been fielded in massive and coherent, all-arms groupings, these where rendered down. Instead a regiment must conform to a (very broadly) defined type wether Infantry, Armoured, Artillery, Pioneer or any number of allowed variations. This might first appear at odds with the notion that a Regiment must be prepared to stand alone, but I tell you now, this is entirely deliberate, for it forces a level of interdependence at levels higher than the Regiment, an interdependence that only can come from loyal servants of the Munitorum. Were, for example , an Artillery Regiment to turn from the True Path of Humanity, it would scare be able to resist a punitive assault by a Trop Droop Regiment."

So it's another provision to asure loyalty. Until I've read this text I too thought of a Regiment to consist of different types of companies. But this text gives a good and conclusive explanation.

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hotwire
 Post subject: Imperial Logistics/Artillery
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 2:05 pm 
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you realise that the US army is less that 1% of the Imperium's Military. They would want to subdivide huge artillery only sections that get lent off to various divisions in parts. Thus the Artillery would have their own hierrachy level with the armies.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Imperial Logistics/Artillery
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 2:26 pm 
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(hotwire @ Feb. 11 2007,13:05)
QUOTE
you realise that the US army is less that 1% of the Imperium's Military. They would want to subdivide huge artillery only sections that get lent off to various divisions in parts. Thus the Artillery would have their own hierrachy level with the armies.

Less than 0.001%

The Imperium has more than 1 million worlds...



But yeah, check the IA books, they have some of the best fluff on IG army organisations out there.

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CyberShadow
 Post subject: Imperial Logistics/Artillery
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 2:43 pm 
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Thanks for your comments, guys. My background is that my Imperial Guard army are a crusade force, retaking the Daedalus Belt for the Ad Mech and mining operations. This results in a number of different regiments drawn there. This makes resupply and support important, as there are no planetry resources.

I dont have IA1, but I will revisit IA3 and try not to drawn towards the shiney Tau stuff! IA3 has a little organisational stuff, but it still doesnt cover the engineering side in the detail that I would like. Although it does have the artillery and support units in the same organisational charts - which is good.

With so many conflicting organisations, it seems that I can go ahead and put together my own stuff. So, the Pendraken IVth are a specialised regiment, dedicated to suppression, support and logistics ("Faith moves mountains. We take care of the rest.")

They have individual formations attached to them, drawn from the crusade regiments as defence and protection.

The force will contain a lot of engineering and artillery vehicles (bridge layers, super heavy transports, mine clearers, communications vehicles, worship alter vehicles, etc).

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orangesm
 Post subject: Imperial Logistics/Artillery
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 5:00 pm 
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You can base force structure on whatever you want.  Yes mine is similar to modern western military organizations, but that is what I am familiar with.  Also I based that on a few things in AI 1 and AI 3.

The 19th Krieg Armoured Regiment has 1 Battalion of Leman Russes (4 Companies), 1 Mech Inf Battalion (3 Companies), an Artillery Company, and Anti-Air Company, a Scout Commpany, and a Destroyer Squadron.  The Regimental Command has attached to it a Sentinel Squadron, a Comms Detachment, a Supply Company (Trojans w/ Trailers and Power Lifters), a Medical Detachment, 2 Recovery Detachments, a workshop detachment.
On the opposite page there is an outline of an Assault Engineering Company.
(pg 258 IA:1)

The 17th Tallarn Desret Raiders Regiment has 3 Infantry 'Brigades', 3 Rough Rider Co, 3 Sentinel Co, 3 Armoured Co, an Artillery 'Brigade' with a variety of Artillery Companies.  It also has attached Munitorum Supply Columns.

The 23rd Elysian - 8 Drop Companies and 2 Sentinel Companies.

The 12th Tallarn has 3 Tank Brigades, 3 Mech Inf Co, Regimental Artillery, and 3 Recon Companies, in addition to attached Super-Heavy Companies from another Reigment.

The 114th Cadian Regiment has 3 groups of 4 Mech Inf Co, 1 Artillery 'Brigade' a Storm Trooper Platoon, and 2 Recon Companies.
(pg 256-266 IA:3)

So based on the information in those two books I would say that ground regiments do have their own artillery in many cases.  Also most of the Regiments have an Ordnance,  Medical, Signals, Workshop, and/or Recovery Companies attached to their Regimental HQ that take care of the Regiments logistical needs.

For your Pendraken IVth Engineering Regiment, I would expect a few companies of infantry to guard the engineers themselves. 1 Infantry Company to every 3 engineering companies.  I also would think this is would be a company with a lot of Tarantulas and automated defenses.  So it may have a Defenses Brigade/Battalion/Company.

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Imperial Logistics/Artillery
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 9:02 pm 
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O.K. ... this is something I know a little about ... I don't know what the G/W fluff says ... but they know less about Logistic TO&Es than they do Tactical ... ? ? ? ? ?****?Artillery (FA) is normally not organized in Divs.( Div = 3-4 Bdes/Rgts. (the USSR, NVA, etc. did have FA Divs but these always did not function together but were sliced up and assigned to other units)... Bde/Rgt = 9-10 Manuever Bns (Inf and/or Armor) ?They are Organic/part of Infantry (Lgt, Mech, Abn, Mar., etc.) or Armor Divs. ?A Div usually has an Organic FA Bde of 3-4 FA Bns (say 105mm-155mm). And there are separate (Sep.) Bns or Bdes at Corps level (Corps = 2-3 + Divs + Corps asset, like FA, Trans, etc.). ?The Sep. Units are usually heavy or missile/rocket FA (8in Howitzers, MLRS, Adv. Rocket Systems, etc.). FA is assigned to support the manuever Bdes/Bns based on the Div Cmd's operational plan(s) (OPLANs). ?A Inf/Arm Bn, may have 1-2 + FA Batteries (Btys = FA Companies in G/W lingo !?), is direct support (DS) of their operations. This support is called in by radio ... So put it in Epic scale. ?3-4 Inf and/or Arm Cos. would have a Bty of 4-6 "tubes" or guns (Basilisks) in DS ... with the possibly of more based on the OPLAN and Tactical situation ... Even higher echelon (Corps FA) assets could be called in if avail. and needed. So even Manticores or Deathstrikes could be added. Griffins, ?Self-Propelled Hvy Mortars (SPHMs) would be part of the Bns assets and be a ?platoon (plt.) of 4-6 tubes. ?So if you have an IG Bn, you'd normally have 4-6 Griffins and 4-8 Basilisks in your OOB (Order of Battle). ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? **** Logistics - I was an S-4 (Logistician) at Bn and Bde. Logistics (Supply, material, etc.), are from a Combat Support Bde organic to the Div. ?Each Bde/Rgt gets a Cbt Spt Bn "Slice" in DS from the Cbt Spt Bn. Organic to the Bn is an S-4 Logistic Section (8-10 men) who coordinate the logistic requirements of the Bn. These are under direct control of the S-4. The following organic to the Bn - Transportation Plt.- 20+ Trucks; POL/Refueling ?(Petrol, Oil, Lubs) Plt.- 8+ Trucks; Mess plt.= 6 Cook Tms. ?There is a 63 man Maint. plt. 6-8 Recovery Vehs. 6-8 Maint. Contact Tms APCs. (Trojans ?), + Supply Trucks. ?And Medical Plt of 6 Medic APCs. The Cbt Spt Bn has the same type of support assets, Trans, POL, Maint., Med, etc. at Company Level to support the Bns in the Maneuver Bde/Rgt. In an Epic games ... these would not even be on the board. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? **** Combat Engineers (CEs), a Bn is organic to a Div. and the are numerous Separate CE Bdes at Corps level. And these are attached to Divs based on the OPLAN. A Bde/Rgt would normally have a CE Co. attached to it, but it is not unusual to have more. ? The CE Company, would have AVLBs ( 2-3 mobile bridges), 14 (+ or ?) APCs/Dump Trucks, CEVs, 4-8 (+ or ?) (Cbt Eng Vehs), Dozers, etc. ... ? In an Epic game ... Demolishers could be CEVs. Armored CEs would travel in an APC (M113 - RL), so a Rhino/Gorgon/Chimera. ?An AVLB - GZG makes a nice one. ?CEs are also sometimes referred to as "Sappers" and there are rules for those in Swordwind. ?As a Mech Company Cdr, I'd have a CE Squad (1 APC, 10+ C/Engs) or if I was really lucky, a Plt 3-4 APCs, 40 CEs (+ or ? )... ?I Hope that helps ... ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??Again we use SM1 IG MTO&Es and they are great for Task Organizing an Epic force for gaming purpose, IMO ... (but what do I know ! ) :laugh:




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