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Revised Eldar Titans
1. No change 33%  33%  [ 5 ]
2. Yes, 50 point drop to Revenants, Phantoms, Warlocks 40%  40%  [ 6 ]
3. Yes, but differential drop in points (state below) 27%  27%  [ 4 ]
Total votes : 15

Revised Eldar Titans

 Post subject: Revised Eldar Titans
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:18 am 
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Under the current ERC revision proposals for Eldar, the titans have taken quite a downgrade in their effectiveness.

Before the revision, there were already requests to reduce the points of Warlocks and Phantoms, with an acknowledgement that Revenants were overpowered and thus suffering from the opposite problem.

Now with the revisions Eldar Titans have taken the following downgrades:
1. They no longer have spirit stones, which means they are suppressed and broken more easily (a particular problem given their very low DC per points ratio).
2. The pulsars are much less effective on sustained fire, less effective on normal orders, and slightly better when doubling. Overall the potential damage dealing ability has been substantially reduced.
3. The Revenant has taken a further downgrade with a reduction in it's pulse lasers to hit number from 3+ to 4+.

With all these downgrades there have been persistent murmurings that Eldar Titans just don't cut it anymore, especially the Revenants and Phantoms, but also the Warlock. Furthermore it is worth noting that at the same time the Eldar Titans have been significantly downgraded,  Imperial Reavers and Warlords have received a major range boost (+15cm to turbo lasers and vulcan megabolter), and Ork Titans have received improved macro-weapon barrages.

With a 50 point drop, points savings would be in the 5-10% range as follows:
Revenant: 7.7%,
Phantom:  6.7%,
Warlock: 5.9%.

One further point is that the interaction with aircraft formations in typical 3K Tournament lists would also be affected.  For instance a player taking titans would have the following options before and after the points drop:

Revenants Before: Vampire, Nightwings. After: Vampires, Nightwing, Phoenix
Phantom Before: Vampire. After: Vampire, Nightwing.
Warlock Before: Nothing.  After:Vampire.

Thus an increased variety in potential 3K army lists tournament scene would be a further factor to consider.


The last ERC evaluation on this points drop idea was to take a 'wait and see' approach and wait for further feedback. This poll is to assess what people at Epicomms now think about Eldar Titans under the current ERC revisions, and whether this points drop is warranted.

So vote and have your say:
1. No change
2. Yes, 50 point drop to Revenants, Phantoms, Warlocks
3. Yes, but differential drop in points (state below)


For my own part I abstained on this issue first time around, but I now think that this points drop would be a good idea. Definitely for the Revenants and Phantom, and I don't think it would hurt on the Warlock either. I think the increased potential range of titan/aircraft compositions in tournament lists would also be a good thing.

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 Post subject: Revised Eldar Titans
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 1:27 pm 
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Modified Revenenats - point drop
Phantom - maybe.  I haven't played with it but the Pulsars did take a hit.
Warlock - no.  Typical Warlock gear is Psycannon/Powerfist for assaults, so the Pulsar change means nothing.

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 Post subject: Revised Eldar Titans
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 1:33 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Aug. 07 2007,12:27)
QUOTE
Warlock - no.  Typical Warlock gear is Psycannon/Powerfist for assaults, so the Pulsar change means nothing.

Yes but it was something proposed for a drop even before the pulsar change.

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 Post subject: Revised Eldar Titans
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:03 pm 
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The Warlock is a killing machine.  If you drop the points I will bring it in every game and NEVER LOSE.  It needs to remain at 850.

600 for the Revenants sounds fine since they really got hammer hard with the point revisions.

Phantom strikes me as fine as is (that might change with further playtesting).

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 Post subject: Revised Eldar Titans
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:14 pm 
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I agree with Mosc.  The Warlock is one of those units that is very difficult to figure out, but once you get it down, it is a complete monster.

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 Post subject: Revised Eldar Titans
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:29 pm 
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I have not cast a vote, but I want to ask: why are points drops being discussed for downgraded units?  If the downgrades were so significant that they potentially warranted points reductions then why are some revision of the downgrades not being discussed?

If the elimination of Spirit Stones from the army made the titans not worth their points, then why not make Spirit Stones a special rule for the titans?  The *old* background material made a big deal about how the accumulation of Spirit Stones on the titans was an integral part of the operation of the titans.  Well, considering that the titan miniatures are covered in Spirit Stones (almost like the Eldar version of "bling bling") and the other Eldar miniatures are not to such an extent then maybe a special rule for Eldar war engines might be in order.

I'm not going to argue in regards to whether something needs to be done or not.  But I do suggest that instead of changing points costs it might be worthwhile to reverse some of the stat changes instead.

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 Post subject: Revised Eldar Titans
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:39 pm 
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Blarg, your solution would probably work.  However if given a choice between a point drop and a special rule, I'll take the point drop.  The fewer exceptions there are to the rules, the faster the game play and the less hinky it will seem.  Special rules should be left to help resolve things that the standard rules can't or to capture the flavor of the fluff (or both) IMO.

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 Post subject: Revised Eldar Titans
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:00 pm 
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No way. If you say Warlock is not worth his points, you simply have no idea how to play it. They are real monsters to play with or against. They have a 80cm diameter(plus their base diameter) threat radius, are hell fast and you will never loose an engagement with this monsters, eighter initiated or supported. They die only by bad dice rolling and if your opponent rolls lucky, you will never bring ?m down, even if you throw your whole army on them.

Revenants I cannot figure out. My Marines alway have troubles with them, ?cause of their speed and agility and MW-loadout. I?m not sure if they should cost near to two warhounds with this weapons, speed and holofield special ability.

Phantom Titans I?ve never played with or against.

my 0,002 cents


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 Post subject: Revised Eldar Titans
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 5:07 pm 
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The Phantom should definitely go down to 700, it?s firepower is okay but not overwhelming. I only use them in scenario play since it?s Warlock otherwise.

The Warlock is priced accurately, and it is indeed a monster.

Don?t know about the Revenants, I have none and only was fired at by them twice, amazingly bad rolls that allowed my LatD to overrun a flank.

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 Post subject: Revised Eldar Titans
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:14 am 
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How about we ignore the eldar review and just leave the eldar list as it is but without spirit stones then increase the cost of revenants to 700pts - its much easier.

As it is all these polls make it seem like we are having a review of the review - before its even become official.

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 Post subject: Revised Eldar Titans
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:11 am 
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(yme-loc @ Aug. 08 2007,09:14)
QUOTE

How about we ignore the eldar review and just leave the eldar list as it is but without spirit stones then increase the cost of revenants to 700pts - its much easier.

As it is all these polls make it seem like we are having a review of the review - before its even become official.

Official.  :laugh:  :D  

Yeah I'd love that too...  and complete updated pdf's rather than dozens of different documents and erratas...  :alien:
Maybe see the link in my signature...  :;):

I guess I just got sick of waiting. Months and then years of broken deadlines for even basic core rules revisions will do that...

On your first point I mostly like what Sotec (and we) produced after a LOT of effort.  After several months and more playtesting and comments from other players, I think there remain just a few niggles (esp stuff like revenants and firestorms), that should be relatively easy to tweak. Hence these polls.

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 Post subject: Revised Eldar Titans
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:32 pm 
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Ok votes and feedback good enough to make up my mind here as well for now. 2-1 support for giving a change a go, but reasonable objections against changing the Warlock.

600 for Revenants.
700 for Phantom.
No change for Warlock.

Regarding Phantom. Experience in my own playgroup has been consistent with complaints I've heard here and at SG. People are just not seeing it as a worthwhile choice now. In theory perhaps a double pulsar phantom should be 700 and a powerfist/pulsar phantom should be 725. However, really that powerfist/pulsar combo is an awkward mix of close/ranged abilities and making such a points differential would be inelegant and not worth the bother. Let's see how it goes.

Thanks for the votes and feedback.

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