I agree Ares, a nice summary but I do not think this truely represents the HB's agility and power and I am not sure about the conclusion either. Equally I am not sure what the WS role in the Fluff is - I suspect it is more of a lightly armoured scout, though I am sure someone will enlighten us

IMHO the main distinction is purely in game mechanic terms:- WS are FF orientated, while HB are CC orientated. Without First Strike on both formations the WS still win hands down because they can clip and have better armour saves, while the HBs have to mix it up close, and have worse saves. If we want to go down this path of balancing WS against HB, IMHO we should also swap the armour stats (and anyway 4+ armour would also reflect the HBs agility).

Also note, WS "Infiltrator" is supposed to represent their ability to warp short distances, while First Strike represents the shock of their sudden appearance. Now you could represent their mobility by giving them 25cm moves without infiltrator leaving the FS for the 'shock', so that would give the following stats:-

Warp Spider
Move=25, Armour=5+, CC5+, FF4+
Death Spinner (15cm) Small Arms
Notes:- First Strike, Jump Pack, Scout (and revert to fully transportable)

Howling Banshee
Move=20, Armour=4+, CC2+, FF5+
Shuriken Pistols (15cm) Small Arms
Banshee Mask (Base Contact) Assault Weapons - First Strike
Notes:- Infiltrator

But this is dramatic spit-balling, and to answer Chroma, I have tried a number of combinations though not the above. As others have said, without some dramatic changes of this sort of nature, people are still going to leave the HBs behind
(and even here, I would like to give them "Assassin" on the mask and make them CC3+)

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I think the main utility of short ranged teleport would be to avoid being shot at as you cross (or don't cross, as the casemay be) open ground under fire. I interpret the WS teleport as short jumps, meaning an enemy could see them in advance as they hop across the battlefield. You just can't put down effective fire on them as they materialize from cover to cover. The ability to make long ranged teleports is represented by the Teleport special ruke, which allows for strategic/grand tactical surprise. The WS don't have that range and total surprise capacity that for example teleporting Terminators have in the fluff. Let WS keep inflitrate, but lose first strike.

HB on the other hand would then have First Strike as their "aspect skill", representing psychic screams and acrobatic assaults to smear the enemy first. Supplemented witha healthy CC factor and prehaps ani ncreased speed to take into account their acrobatics, speed and light armour.

No need to swap around armour ratings, as HBs have always been portrayed light and quick, whereas the WS have big bulky armour to hold teleporters. No need for a change what the fluff is clear about.

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Losing first strike on Warp Spiders would certainly make the other aspects look more favourable, and combined with a slight banshee boost could certainly make them worth taking.

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Yep, and that Banshee boost could well be either increasing their speed, or giving them 4+ AR in assaults due do superior dodging skill.

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Maybe thats because its hard to get the models?

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One thing to note: First Strike and good firefight make for a particularly strong Clipping unit.

I've got sixteen stands, and I've only ever taken one pure Warp Spider formation at a time; and it's not even usually "pure", it's often six Warp Spiders and two Swooping Hawks, for the scouts ability, in the Webway.

When I take multiple Aspect Warhosts (which starts getting expensive), I'll usually take a Warp Spider/Swoops formation, and then a pure Shining Spears Warhost or a mixed mechanized one.

Even in the other Craftworlds lists, I've never taken multiple Warp Spider ASpect Troops.

Would someone care to try out "A Wave of Warp Spiders" tests using Alaitoc or Biel-Tan and see how that goes?

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What if Warpies had their FF reduced to 5+?  Sure they've got "strong" guns, but they don't penetrate armour that well.

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Yeah, why not? The spinner is noted in the fluff as being very effective against light armour targets. It's about internal balancing too. The unit has a number of advantages, such as good armour save, infiltrate and first striker, and on top of that it also has good guns...

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While intruiging and perhaps part of the answer, the Warp Spider debate is a bit of a red-herring here.

Let us imagine for the moment that Warp Spiders do not exist at all - would anyone take HBs then? Many replies in this thread suggest that they are still sub-optimal when compared with other Aspects. So what would we need to do to make them attractive? Indeed, what is it that makes any Aspect attractive?

One of my favourite formations is 3x Striking Scorpions, 3x Fire Dragons and 2x Exarch Fire Dragons, mounted in 4x Wave Serpents. Yes it is quite expensive at 550 points, but it is durable and can be used in many ways. Considering these tactics a second, the SS and Wave Serpents make a reasonable shield for the weaker FDs and DAs which can lay BMs and are good at supporting assault(s). In support the formation kicks out up to 14x '4+' and 3x '5+' dice (~8 hits) while if initiating an assault the formation totals a maximum of 20x '4+' dice (~10 hits).

Replacing any of these Aspects with HBs makes the formation less effective because they have worse armour and worse CC statistics than the SS, while their ranged fire is worse than the DAs and FDs. Indeed HBs essentially only have a single role (CC assault) unlike the SS which can also provide some kind of shield due to their superior armour save.

So HBs evidently need to be combined with other Aspects, but it soon becomes apparent that no combinations work as well with with HBs as they do with other Aspects. And so the problem becomes one of finding a way of making them work as well as others in combination, but in their own CC niche. And in turn, that tends to mean finding the right tactics for them.

I still maintain that it is their 'worse' armour that is at the heart of problem - essentially they find it impossible to kill off sufficient enemy to prevent retaliation and they do not survive as well as the other Aspects. However, IMHO improving their armour is not sufficient; they also need that extra 'sparkle' to make them stand out in their appointed niche. Now whether that is 'Infiltrator', improved mobility, 'Assassin', 'sniper' or something else, IMHO this 'sparkle' is what needs to be worked on.

On Warp Spiders, I have 11 full stands but have not used them in any tournament over the last 12-18 months because removing the Wave Serpent transport option meant they did not fit into the way that I was trying to make the army work. However, while I agree with Carrington, Semajollisor and others that they need some more attention, please can we leave WS out of the HB discussion at the moment.

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One idea might be for Striking Scorpions to loose the extra attack.

Striking Scorpions are there to pin the enemy at one spot. Thir CC abilities aren't that hot but their armour gives them staying power.

Howling Banshees on the other hand are there to deliver the killing blow. They are superp in CC with their Power Swords but they have to actually kill their enemies otherwise they will be sliced to bits because of their weak armour.

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Both Striking Scorpions and Howling Banshees actually have relatively similar performance against infantry to be honest, based on their background.  The key difference is that Howling Banshees are simply faster, and can use their acrobatic skills to dance around their opponents, which is why I felt the infiltrator change was the most sensible suggestion so far.

Improving their armour save is a no go area as far as I am concerned, as this directly contradicts their background.

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Irisado, I understand your perspective on HB armour, but there is a lot of precedent in Epic for speed to be represented by a higher armour save. The higher armour save is in effect stating that it is harder to hit a moving target.

On the relative abilities of Scorpions and Banshees, 2x CC4+ is almost equivalent to CC2+, the main difference being the variation in possible results, as the SS can potentially get 2.0 hits while the HBs can only get a maximum of 1.0 hits.

Infiltrator exactly matches the concept of 'dancing around opponents', so is an obvious choice, but I question whether this is enough by itself.

Sadly there is no special ability in assault that allows a differentiation between target types in the same way that AP / AT works for shooting. If there were, again this would be the obvious choice for the HBs.

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I understand your point, although given that Eldar Super heavy tanks are hardly slow, yet have a 5+ save, suggests to me it's a bit more complicated than that .

In all seriousness though, your point is sound, but I do not think we can justify giving Howling Banshees parity of save with Striking Scorpions, yet neither can we improve the save of the Scorpions to compensate for any change to the Banshees in my view, hence why I feel that this is a blind alley that we would do better off not to go down.



Could we not try it out and see before making other changes?



True, although I think the assault phase does not really need any more special rules of that kind.

I feel the best way to proceed is to play test them extensively with the infiltrator rule, and then if that doesn't work, come back and discuss further options, although I very much doubt enough people will agree, given how long this debate seems to have run for in the past.  Still, hope is the last thing that dies

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Why not? Doing this alone would improve the assault resolution for the HB, and so make them more attractive.

Adding infiltrator allows the HB to jump forward and interpenetrate enemy formations, but of itself it does nothing to make the HB better in assault, nor does it make the enemy less effective. IMHO Infiltrator is very 'fluffy' and appropriate, but not a great differentiator.

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