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Problems with Craftworld Eldar list

 Post subject: Problems with Craftworld Eldar list
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:39 pm 
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Quote: (GlynG @ Nov. 10 2009, 11:52 )

Quote: (frogbear @ Nov. 10 2009, 09:50 )

I would like to know the justification behind giving Wraithguard 2x FF shots. I guess I can understand the MW, but why 2 shots?

It may not seem like an issue for a normal list however when they are a core unit for a Craftworld, I feel they could really use a re-think...

They all carry very nasty Wraithguns that tear open holes into another hostile universe (same tech as the Cobra's gun).

Most normal squads have mostly normal weapons with a single special and/or heavy weapon, but each of these all come with powerful weapons.

They are good at the moment, but balanced good and not too good IMO.

If they all carry Wraithguns (and I don't believe they carry anything else), then why aren't both shots MW like with shooting?

It's not a real problem for Guardian boosters, but it just seems over the top in a squad. I believed them to be lacking the Extra Attack, and I still wanted to play Iyanden, but someone else  :shutup:  in my group took them before I could.

Obviously specific craftworld choice does matter, but there's also a lot of crossover between each. I see 8 Fire Warriors (BielTann) as being relatively decent. But even with the Exarchs at 350, I'd still prefer the Iyanden Wraithguards.

Similar volume of shots (10xMWFF vs 6xMWFF + 7xFF), but almost 2.5 times better saves. 3 Return FF hits kill 2 FireDragons, but should only have a 50% chance of killing a WraithGuard. And even if it fails, they've got the Fearless to fall back on.

As stated earlier, that's cool when they've got the chain of Guardians around their neck. But otherwise...

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 Post subject: Problems with Craftworld Eldar list
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:25 am 
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Quote: (BlackLegion @ Nov. 10 2009, 19:23 )

Oddly there is no Eldar weapon with a range greater than 60" which translates to 60cm in Epic.
The only exception is the Night Spinner's Shadow Weaver which has a range of G72" which translates to 75cm as IndirectFire range (direct fire range would be 37,5cm).

Umm, I thought you also showed that 4-5 FPs had a range up to 84"? From Swordwind there is the suggestion that the Prism cannon has a significantly longer range than the Pulse lasers.

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 Post subject: Problems with Craftworld Eldar list
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:31 am 
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Single weapons. :) Not the combined might of several Fire Prisms which is a special case (and the extended range is only valid in Apocalypse) :)

And yes the Fire Prism has a longer range (60" = 60cm in Epic)) than the Falcon's Pulse Laser (48" = 45cm in Epic).

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 Post subject: Problems with Craftworld Eldar list
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:52 am 
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And with the SoV formation or my counter-proposal you can get 5-6 FPs which would seem to justify this additional range (but not with the AT2+ stats obviously).

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 Post subject: Problems with Craftworld Eldar list
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:06 am 
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But with increased range there would be fewer shots which would result in weaker shots in Epic.

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 Post subject: Problems with Craftworld Eldar list
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:22 am 
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And as we do not want to add special rules, the approach would be to reduce the stats to AT4+, or effectively to leave them as they were in Swordwind.

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 Post subject: Problems with Craftworld Eldar list
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:31 am 
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Well i would put in the Notes that half of the formations Fire Prisms could fire a 60cm MW4+ shot. Same rules as with Autocannons of Imperial Guard Infantry units.

You COULD add the non-combined shot (60cm AP4+/AT4+ without Lance) but this would complicate it because if you chooses so it would enable some Fire Prisms to shoot combined and some alone.
So i propose these stats for the Fire Prism for the Swords of Vaul Troupe:

Fire Prism
Type Speed Armour CloseCombat Firefight
Armoured Vehicle 35cm 5+ 6+ 5+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Prism Cannon 60cm MW4+ -

Notes: Skimmer. Only one unit in every two can fire it's Prism Cannon. Count up the number of Fire Prism units in the formation that can fire at the target formation and divide by two (rounding up) to find the number of Prism Cannon shots you may take.




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 Post subject: Problems with Craftworld Eldar list
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:05 am 
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Quote: (Honda @ Nov. 10 2009, 16:00 )

Quote: 

Whether or not the NetEA Fireprism stats are worth the points cost (either as 65 pt in a Swords of Vaul troupe, are in a formation of 3 for 250 pts) is another question entirely. I personally feel that fire prisms (with 60cm AT2+/AP4+ lance) are close to equal in value to falcon. If that isn't the case, why not try to adjust their stats again, so that a swords of vaul troupe can be as easy as picking 5 tanks from the following list: falcon, fire prism, 0-2 firestorm; for 250pts, with an option for a sixth for an additional 50pts.


I think the real issue here is cost not AA. I think the above recommendation should be pursued.

i like this idea. but i dont think they need up'ing to 75 cm range.  60 is spot on when you consider the double move aswell.  at 75 cm you can double and shoot anything in there deployment zone and back to saftey np's  alittle to strong imo.  60 is good


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 Post subject: Problems with Craftworld Eldar list
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:05 am 
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Quote: (BlackLegion @ Nov. 11 2009, 00:31 )

Well i would put in the Notes that half of the formations Fire Prisms could fire a 60cm MW4+ shot. Same rules as with Autocannons of Imperial Guard Infantry units.

You COULD add the non-combined shot (60cm AP4+/AT4+ without Lance) but this would complicate it because if you chooses so it would enable some Fire Prisms to shoot combined and some alone.
So i propose these stats for the Fire Prism for the Swords of Vaul Troupe:

Fire Prism
Type Speed Armour CloseCombat Firefight
Armoured Vehicle 35cm 5+ 6+ 5+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Prism Cannon 60cm MW4+ -

Notes: Skimmer. Only one unit in every two can fire it's Prism Cannon. Count up the number of Fire Prism units in the formation that can fire at the target formation and divide by two (rounding up) to find the number of Prism Cannon shots you may take.

IMO that is precisely the kind of Apocalypse based rule/stat that doesn't need, and shouldn't, be adopted as an epic stat.

Whilst apocalypse is a useful source of terminology, broad stats and even new units, rules, such as this, which, as far as I can see, are to force apoc players to buy 3 prisms don't need be followed.

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 Post subject: Problems with Craftworld Eldar list
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:18 am 
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How can I move the concern over the Waraithguard over to the Iyanden forum (it is locked at the moment) seeing it appears to be ignored on this one?

Chroma?

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 Post subject: Problems with Craftworld Eldar list
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:44 am 
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Quote: (frogbear @ Nov. 11 2009, 09:18 )

How can I move the concern over the Waraithguard over to the Iyanden forum (it is locked at the moment) seeing it appears to be ignored on this one?

Just start a new thread, as Wraithguard discussion isn't just limited to Iyanden, even if it is the core of their army.   :agree:

Thanks!

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 Post subject: Problems with Craftworld Eldar list
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:14 pm 
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At the moment the Falcon and Fire Prism are both going for the anti-tank niche and the Falcon is winning on everything except range.

Fire Prism at 60cm AP4+/AT2+ Lance and 50pts each would put the Fire Prism as a viable Falcon alternative against 3+/4+ RA vehicles.


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 Post subject: Problems with Craftworld Eldar list
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:22 pm 
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Quote: (Steve54 @ Nov. 11 2009, 10:05 )

Quote: (BlackLegion @ Nov. 11 2009, 00:31 )

Well i would put in the Notes that half of the formations Fire Prisms could fire a 60cm MW4+ shot. Same rules as with Autocannons of Imperial Guard Infantry units.

You COULD add the non-combined shot (60cm AP4+/AT4+ without Lance) but this would complicate it because if you chooses so it would enable some Fire Prisms to shoot combined and some alone.
So i propose these stats for the Fire Prism for the Swords of Vaul Troupe:

Fire Prism
Type Speed Armour CloseCombat Firefight
Armoured Vehicle 35cm 5+ 6+ 5+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Prism Cannon 60cm MW4+ -

Notes: Skimmer. Only one unit in every two can fire it's Prism Cannon. Count up the number of Fire Prism units in the formation that can fire at the target formation and divide by two (rounding up) to find the number of Prism Cannon shots you may take.

IMO that is precisely the kind of Apocalypse based rule/stat that doesn't need, and shouldn't, be adopted as an epic stat.

Whilst apocalypse is a useful source of terminology, broad stats and even new units, rules, such as this, which, as far as I can see, are to force apoc players to buy 3 prisms don't need be followed.

Actually the ability to combine shots is from Codex Eldar.
Only with Apocalypse there where introduced rules to combine more than 3 Fire Prisms.

I based my proposal of the Codex Eldar rules (as i proposed a combined shot only for two Fire Prisms each) and ignored Apocalypse.
And with my proposesd stats you aren't forced to take 3 Fire Prisms. One is sufficent to have the 60cm MW4+ shot. A 2nd one will give them more staying power and can soak Blastmarkers. A 3rd one wouild add a second shot. And in a Swords of Vaul Troupe you can get up to 6 Fire Prisms (= 3 60cm MW4+ shots)




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 Post subject: Problems with Craftworld Eldar list
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:35 pm 
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i wouldnt buy a unit at that price if only half of them could shoot, would you ?

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 Post subject: Problems with Craftworld Eldar list
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:43 pm 
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With 75pts a piece? Perhabs a drop top 50pts (same costs as Falcons) it would be more worthwhile.

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