I'm wondering if we can get a consolidated list of people's beefs with the current SG list and their own possible remedies. It means we won't have to search all the threads and it will be easier to tell where people currently sit with what unit type etc. For example I just read(in an old post) that JSTR19 is ok with the current Firewarriors with a slight tweak. I had no idea as I thought he was of a different mind on the FWs.

Personally I'd like to see where everyone stands and if a few of the ideas overlap etc. so we can perhaps make adjustments to the majority's view.

Don't be adverse to backing someone else's remedy if you like it - that's the aim of this post to try and get people to agree

If you can please keep your replies short and neat that would be awesome e.g.  keep our replies to only the following info that would be great - it's just so we can keep this thread tidy without tangents    

Unit Name - Personal annoyance - Your remedy

thanks guys!

Markerlight Sentry Turrets - Too cheap and too many formations available - Increase cost to (at least) 100pts/formation and limit them to 1 group/1500pts.

_________________
Just call me Steve.

NetEA Rules Chair
NetEA FAQ

Want to play Iron Warriors in Epic Armageddon? Click HERE
Some of my Armies.
My Hobby site.

Independent drones with the current no-BM rules are obscene. I simply will not play with these rules. I've done it enough times -- once.

The problem is this: get a few gun drone formations. Three is plenty. Move them up, just beyond engagement range. Your enemy simply can not break them. There are four drones, each with a 5+ save. The formation only takes blast markers when it's shot -- casualties do not matter. Try breaking them with ranged fire. I shudder to think how it is with 8 drones...

The unit.
My main beef is with the army. It doesn't play like the tau were advertised. It was always I thought supposed to be an assault adverse close range shooting force, using technology such as guided missiles to make up for long range firepower.

Personal Annoyance
Instead it crept, the planes became the best in the game, the 75cm firepower became the best, stuff like skimmers and the jump pack rule removed lots of the close assault vulnerability, a plethora of units and particularly AP guided missiles made Firewarriors redundant, a signature unit and if you want to win you don't take it.

In fact Firewarriors for me illustrate the crux of the problem - in the list the (old 30cm) devilfish and firewarrior and skyray form the best mechanised formation in the game in my humble opinion. But they have no real role here unless you wish to play with a handicap.

Remedy
I'd love to see a description of intent about how the list functions to be able to measure what we have against it. Currently I feel the image I have of it is simply outdated and everyone shifted to something else, but whatever it was I missed it.

The planes can be the best and everything else, but lets have some background/vision statement to support it so I at least can see where everything is supposed to fit in.

Or are we simply looking to balance whats currently written down, regardless of the resultant play styles it promotes?

_________________
If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

I'm with TRC on this one. I would like to see Tau return to the way they operate in 40kid. Tau shouldn't have artillery. FW's should be able to hold their own in a fire fight. The ethereal should be inspiring again. Aircraft should be slightly downgraded. TRC's stats for these are currently my favourite especially for the Tigershark. I actually prefer it as a bomber with a 4+ AS but DC 1. The Manta is not supposed to be an anti-titan unit it a an extremely powerful troop transport. It currently has far too much firepower in the SG list. The Moray is perhaps unnecessary as aircraft do its job just as well. I've been using the Forge World list and haven't missed them at all.

Thats just my 2cents on the matter.

My issues with the list have been and still are organizational.  I do not believe the list can ever be balanced and it needs to be broken into variant lists:
Regular Tau list (Firewarrior based)
Armored Variant
Drone Variant
Alien Auxilia Variant (Kroot, Vespid, Human)

I proposed this before and had a lot of support but the list shows no sign of change.
I proposed sub-lists (where only one Auxilia could be chosen per Tau army) as a compromise but this obviously only made it into this list in a diluted form and IMO not adequate enough.  

The purpose of variant lists (or sub-lists) is to limit the types of units you can field in a Tournament style list.  The 4.4.3 version has not sufficiently done that.  Drones and Armored Variants need to be part of the equation.

_________________
author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

Note I didn't say they should have stronger FF - I said 'an assault adverse close range shooting force'
So the current FF of 5's and 6's, but more of a shift to short range firepower (like on that proposed variant I did).

So don't worry, we aren't in that much of agreement

_________________
If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

Notably, the diluted form that has made it into the latest list version is completely at odds with the Tau in 40k, which are allowed to mix multiple alien Aux in a single 40k-sized army list, let alone an Epic-sized list!



TRC and Jstr have elucidated my own thoughts pretty well above; I have nothing more to add that would be worthwhile to type.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Ah I think short range fire is 30 and 15cm's. Not necessarily firefight range!

I quite like Lions description of FW.



The rest is here.

_________________
If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

OMFG!! I see now why this board/list is the schamozzle it is.

It's amazing such smart people can't stick to a plan. I asked one thing - keep your replies to a format - and only 3 people posted anything like that!!
I asked it to be that way so people wouldn't have to wade through pages of the same old rubbish that goes back and forth here from day-to-day. I asked it so we could formulate a better and clearer plan to try to fix this list. Instead, the majority of this thread has turned into the same crap that every other thread has become - arguing and more arguing. I'm getting pretty sick of it all. How the hell can we sort this *was edted out  but you can work out what I said* out if no one is willing to at least follow a simple format?  

Can we please post in the format mentioned?

Thankyou.

Just my two cents, and I have been playing the list, just not posting.

Heavy Gun Drones: Not needed, rarely used: Drop from the list.

Sentry Drone Turrets: Too fiddly, less rules without them: Drop from the list.

Independent Formation Drones: Too powerful as trip wire force, I know I abuse them all the time: Make them take BMs and Break just like normal formations. (I have tried this a few times and it ain't bad. Also less rules when they are used this way.(As part of a formation let them take hits from fire but generate no BMs. As an aside maybe just make them LV so no rule about AP/AT hits need be written)

Networked Drones: Yuk there is an easier way to do this: Just give the Armored formations a commander character with the leader ability, less rules, less fiddly.

Auxillia: Too available, unless one wants to create an Auxuillia list: Limit them to like one per 1,500 points, or one per four Tau core formations, or 1/4 points limit, and so on.........

Airpower: Too good: Needs to be cut back a bit, maybe drop one weapon line from each?

Fire Fight vs Firepower: To firefight or not to firefight that is the question: For my two cents keep'em week at firefights and close combat, and maybe reduce the range of their Rifles to 15cms. (That's ALL Rifles)(I have also tried this one and it isn't bad)

75cm Weapons: Too good of a range: Reduce them to 60cm weapons.

No Artillery: There isn't any: Turn one of the Support Craft into a skimmer artillery platform (We have been trying to 'create' pseudo-artillery platforms for the Tau, why not just make one. Or make a varient Skyray as a pure artillery tank)

Units: Too many units types and variants of unit types: Move some of them over to the Non-GT part of the list.

Support Craft WEs: Too effective by being 'all seeing': Drop Support craft and make them flyers or skimmers.

Well there is my two cents thanks all.....

Jaldon

_________________
I know a dead parrot when I see one and I'm looking at one right now.
Tyranid AC