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E&C's Tau proposal

 Post subject: E&C's Tau proposal
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 4:41 am 
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Can you send me your list Onyx? I might just try yours out. Maybe the Aussies can play their own version  :vD


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 Post subject: E&C's Tau proposal
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 11:31 am 
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Quote: (Dobbsy @ 01 Aug. 2009, 02:25 )

We finally get a proposal that a lot of people do seem to like but still has some work to do on it where it could actually be completed. Yet now the AC won't take a chance to see how the proposal actually works and essentially shuts it down because it doesn't fit with his view on the list....

I'm not even sure if it doesn't fit with Honda's view of the list, but Honda has been quite clear that it doesn't fit with his view of how a list should be developed, and I will not compromise this proposal on areas I know for certain need changing.

After years of playing against Epic Tau I believe I can see what needs to be done to finish the Tau army list in a few bold steps, but if Honda doesn't want to go in the direction I'm pointing, then I guess I can't lend my assistance.




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 Post subject: E&C's Tau proposal
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 1:52 pm 
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@E&C:

Since my proposal for the Tau list has been shut down, I would support this solution for the Fire Warriors for the ERC list.

We finally get a proposal that a lot of people do seem to like but still has some work to do on it where it could actually be completed. Yet now the AC won't take a chance to see how the proposal actually works and essentially shuts it down because it doesn't fit with his view on the list....


I'm not even sure if it doesn't fit with Honda's view of the list, but Honda has been quite clear that it doesn't fit with his view of how a list should be developed, and I will not compromise this proposal on areas I know for certain need changing.

First of all, I would say that this is a gross mis-representation of the situation at hand.

Your proposal, which has a lot of promise and which a lot of people including myself are interested in seeing develop, is still in it's very early stages.

To state categorically so early in the game that it's "my way or the highway" "all or nothing" is beneath you. You have offered to help, but now declare that your help is conditional and if you don't get your way, then you'll just go off on your own.

What does that really say about your offer?

There is always a middle ground in any collaborative effort. It is harder to reach and our task is no different, but if there is a genuine interest on all sides to solve the problems, the solution can be realized.

Figuratively speaking, I am standing here with my hand extended.

Your move.

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 Post subject: E&C's Tau proposal
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 2:38 pm 
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Honda:

I'm not saying it's my way or no way, I'm saying that certain aspects of the proposal are crucial to it working properly, and if you veto those aspects then the proposal cannot progress any futher.

If your development strucuture rules remain in place, then my proposal is finished, and you can make of it whatever you wish.



I'll break down as many of the major changes that I'm proposing that I can remember:



===Changes that are critical to the proposal===

1 - Markerlights grant +1 to-hit for everything except aircraft making AA attacks against other aircraft.

2 - Hammerhead formation set at a size of 6 tanks, before upgrades.

3 - Crisis Suit formations lose access to Gun Drones upgrades.

4 - Ten units have some of their weapons' stats modified to balance with the new Markerlight system.

5 - In order to follow Epic's rule whereby a weapon with a particular name must always have the same stats, some aircraft weapons must be reduced in power slightly.

6 - Upgrade choice across the army reduced significantly.

7 - Scorpionfish and Stingray removed, as they do not promote a 'Tau-ish' style of battle, but instead promote static gunline battles.



===Changes that are not critical, but are very important===

8 - Mechanised Fire Warrior formation reduced to 6 infantry & 3 Devilfish, in order to promote the use of Mechanised Fire Warriors.

9 - 'Command Node' Upgrade removed from the list, and replaced with 'Bonded Team', which is only available to Fire Warriors, in order to make Fire Warriors more desirable.

10 - Human Aux re-introduced, to give the Tau the capability to hold ground en masse, as Fire Warriors cannot perform this role efficiently.

11 - Gun Drone formation re-introduced / Gun Drone Special Rule introduced, to help promote a more fluid style of warfare.

12 - Fusion Cannon Hammerhead introduced to fill the gap left by the removal of the Scorpionfish & Stingray, and help promote the manouever-based style of the Tau army list as their range has been reduced to 15cm.

13 - Skyray's AA attack becomes a Guided Missile, meaning that Markerlight units must be used to make use of its full range, thus promoting synergetic strategies in-game.



===Changes that are not critical, and are only included for flavour in order to more closely represent the background, or to enhance the 'feel' of the armylist, instead of strict balance requirements===

14 - Re-stat the Manta and Orca's transport capacities to better match the background.

15 - Add a Heavy Gun Drone formation to allow a new way of getting Markerlights onto the board (via Orca airdrop) and to enhance synergetic possibilities.



===Changes tabled, but not evaluated yet===

16 - Reintroduce the Scorpionfish as a true aircraft with missiles and bombs, to more closely match the brief description of an armed Orca in Imperial Armour 3.

17 - Introduce the twin missile pod Hammerhead to let people use their 'Stingray' miniatures.



=========================

Of the above, the following have been shut down by you:

Critical changes: 2, 3, 5, 6, 7
Important changes: 8, 9, 10, 11, 12
Unimportant/'representational' changes: 14, 15, 16, 17


The greater majority of the critical changes required by my proposal have been vetoed.
The greater majority of the important balance changes have been vetoed.
All 'representational' changes have been vetoed.


Your move.

I cannot make any moves, and must tip my King over on his side.




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 Post subject: E&C's Tau proposal
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 2:48 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 01 Aug. 2009, 14:38 )

===Changes that are critical to the proposal===

2 - Hammerhead formation set at a size of 6 tanks, before upgrades.

I don't see how this component is "critical"... or even a change, as the v5.1 has the Hammerhead formation at six tanks before upgrades.  You've stated a preference that the Tau not be able to field a large number of "small" tank formations, but that seems to only be a preference and have nothing to do with the viability of this proposal.

I'd still rather see the "armour support formation" at a base of four tanks, upgradable to six Hammerheads, with a cost of 275 or something.  

Tau do like their tanks.




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 Post subject: E&C's Tau proposal
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 2:49 pm 
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That teaches me for writing this thing from memory. :))


It's critical not to have a smaller formation in order to prevent popcorning loads of little tank formations.

It could work in the Armoured army list (and indeed I propose a formation size of 4 tanks basic there for the Hammerhead Support Formation), but that's intended to balance against larger/more expensive Core formations.




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 Post subject: E&C's Tau proposal
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 3:55 pm 
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E&C, you personal bias is already showing.

Please give the armoured list equal billing or this whole thing is not worth it.

You are not removing the Scorpionfish and Stingray, rather moving them to the armoured list.
Command Node should be moved to the armoured list (not removed entirely).

I'm not in favour of the AA missiles being Guided. Unneccessary mechanic and will slow down gameplay (as it's worked out whether the AA can be fired or not).

Your lists must be developed side by side and with EQUAL importance or it won't work.

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 Post subject: E&C's Tau proposal
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 4:01 pm 
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Sorry Onxy, I was only referring to the 'core' list as Honda seems not to want to consider having an Armoured list at all (in essence that part of the proposal has also been vetoed).

I say in the very first post of this thread that my proposal is contingent on there being an Armoured list too.

And of course such a list should be given equal status.  :)




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 Post subject: E&C's Tau proposal
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 4:06 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 01 Aug. 2009, 14:49 )

It's critical not to have a smaller formation in order to prevent popcorning loads of little tank formations.

I don't believe formations at 250 points or more are a "popcorn" concern... the four Hammerheads were priced at 250 base cost, which seems quite reasonable... even bump them to 275 if the ML changes enhance the tanks a lot.

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 Post subject: E&C's Tau proposal
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 4:27 pm 
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Chroma: The Tau can already get more activations than their nearest equivilent Epic list (Mechanised IG), allowing smaller Hammerhead formations in the Core list might possibly push the list over the edge into being too good. Possibly.


When writing or modifying a list I tend to be bold conceptually, but cautious with formation sizes and points costings, so I wouldn't support smaller Hammerhead formations under my proposal for the Core list until a problem was shown with formations of 6 either represenationally or practically (through poor in-game performance).

For the Armoured list it is a different matter, as I am not concerned about activation problems with that list as the core choices are significantly more expensive, so that list already has the 4/2 split you support.




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 Post subject: E&C's Tau proposal
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 4:39 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 01 Aug. 2009, 16:27 )

For the Armoured list it is a different matter, as I am not concerned about activation problems with that list as the core choices are significantly more expensive, so that list already has the 4/2 split you support.

Yeah, but I don't support "bulky" IG-style nine unit "core" tank formations for Tau either... so your Armoured Variant doesn't satisfy me.  *laugh8

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 Post subject: E&C's Tau proposal
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 4:41 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 01 Aug. 2009, 16:27 )

Chroma: The Tau can already get more activations than their nearest equivilent Epic list (Mechanised IG), allowing smaller Hammerhead formations in the Core list might possibly push the list over the edge into being too good. Possibly.

I'd actually see "their nearest equivilent Epic list" to be Mechanized *Eldar*... skimming, good range, elite formations, etc.

The Tau seem to have the "zip" of Eldar not the "plodding" nature of IG, even mechanized.

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 Post subject: E&C's Tau proposal
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 4:44 pm 
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Quote: (Chroma @ 01 Aug. 2009, 16:39 )

...I don't support "bulky" IG-style nine unit "core" tank formations for Tau either... so your Armoured Variant doesn't satisfy me.  *laugh8

Well it's a new Sept that really likes tanks, or something. :))

I'd actually see "their nearest equivilent Epic list" to be Mechanized *Eldar*... skimming, good range, elite formations, etc.

The Tau seem to have the "zip" of Eldar not the "plodding" nature of IG, even mechanized.

Mech. Fire Warriors share the more in common with Mech. Guardsmen here I'd say, that being short range with a huge ammount of AP firepower (Mech. IG throw out 21 AP5+ shots at 30cm range).




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 Post subject: E&C's Tau proposal
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 7:29 pm 
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The more I think about it the problem with Tau is that the Eldar got in first and stole all the cool rules  :vD


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 Post subject: E&C's Tau proposal
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 8:46 pm 
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Comments inserted:

===Changes that are critical to the proposal===

1 - Markerlights grant +1 to-hit for everything except aircraft making AA attacks against other aircraft.


Honda: This is a core piece of your proposal and should be included.

2 - Hammerhead formation set at a size of 6 tanks, before upgrades.

Honda: As stated above, this is already in place. I am open to trying the AMHC as a support vs. core

3 - Crisis Suit formations lose access to Gun Drones upgrades.

Honda: I’m fine with this.

4 - Ten units have some of their weapons' stats modified to balance with the new Markerlight system.

Honda: The proposals for these units should be included so that we can evaluate and comment.

5 - In order to follow Epic's rule whereby a weapon with a particular name must always have the same stats, some aircraft weapons must be reduced in power slightly.

Honda: I see any tuning of weapons in the Air caste as a later (probably second step) phase after some testing. I agree that commonly named weapons should have the same values to prevent confusion. Seeing as we are in the early stages, that shouldn’t be a hold up. To get testing going, we could just as easily put “airborneâ€Â

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