I've been working to finish adding in the rest of the unit data sheets and make a few tweaks through out the document and I hope that I'll have time to get some photos taken before I release another draft.

I feel that the list is close to moving to the developmental stage so now is the time to bring up any thoughts or problems with the formations or list structure. The goal here is to stabilize the primary skitarii list and work to get it through approved status by the end of the year.

In January, I hope to start with the Cataphractii list unless we get bogged down with the current skitarii list. However, on to the issues at hand.

Demi-century:
reduce cost to 250 points

Minorus:
Reduce formation to 2 minrous, drop price to 300 points.
Goal: attractiveness of the quake+clp, make direct fire minorus more attractive, make Majoris more attractive.

Minorus Upgrade:
reduce cost to 150 points

Weapons:
Reduce Ordinatus cost of support missile to 50 points.
I don't think that these really get used often and I think it has to do with the gamble involved in using a single shot 75 point weapon on an expensive formation.


Are there any other weapons or units that have been problematic or that y'all think should be looked at more closely? Now's the time to speak up and let me know since it's easier to work through this before changes are made!

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-Vaaish

No comments, concerns, or discussion?

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-Vaaish

Didn't see it first time.

minours formation size drop is the big change there, everything else is tinkering with costs.

I've found it much easier to find pairs of suitable units instead of threes, so on the modelling side it's good.

It makes a single minorus formation an easier thing to risk, making the shorter range weapons slightly more useful then they were before.
it makes quake+CLCP much worse (good) but might actually make the CLP not worth taking at all.

It'll be interesting to see which titan weapons end up being favoured

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My shifting projects

That is a definite possibility! I think that it might still have a use as harassment and blitz guard, but it shouldn't be as quick of a take and I'm hoping that things like the Ordinatus Golgotha or even minorus with support missiles a bit more attractive in the arty role and open up the direct fire versions a bit with the 15cm speed.



I agree.... if people post their findings!

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-Vaaish

I think my opinions are amply on record, but just to reiterate:


Agreed. With the Secutor, this seems about right.


I don't think this makes the minori more attractive at all. They are even more horribly fragile to engagements, now, and being "disposable" is not a fix. They aren't exactly throwaway formations, at 350-400 points.

On a more general note, I don't think the way to make for instance a Majoris more attractive is to nerf the Minori. The Majoris was unattractive before, because it was too expensive for the utility it provided. If everything else is also made unattractive, then the result is not that the Majoris gets fielded, the result is that the Mechanicus list is not fielded at all.

Yes, though I'd price it at 100.

It still won't get taken. It's now a Deathstrike battery at 400 points. It won't get pre-empted as easily as IG Deathstrikes, and it has a little bit of integral AA, but the carriers are slower than the Deathstrikes', which reduces their utility after they've taken their shot.

Deathstrikes are selected in IG armies, because 200 points is not too bad for a one-shot unit. They are selected in Titan armies (at least, by me) because the platform they're on is still very useful after they've fired. They are not selected in AdMech armies, because the Ordinati platforms are too expensive for a oneshot formation - they have no other utility once the missile is gone.

Thanks.

To be honest I don't see it as a problem for the minorus to b fragile in engagements. The fluff has them working closely with infantry or other unit rather than running on their own. Fragility in engagements provides a weakness to the formation and promotes people keeping them near other units for support and portection. They are still VS protect WE with integrated AA and heavy weapons which makes them a bit harder to just engage.

I would disagree onthe majoris, it's about the right price for what it delivers. The problem lies with the minorus providing far greater utility for approximately the same point value making the majoris a bad choice by comparison. Reducing the minorus coy size sets up the majoris to become a more attractive platform since you will no longer be able to get as much utility out of the quake and clp.

I think 100 points is too low for the minorus upgrade. Makes it far too attractive IMO especially for transport purposes.

It's also possible that a single shot weapon will never be attractive on the minorus unless it's free or 25 points simply because of the cost of the platform itself. Ig death strikes are almost no brainers for the cost vs returns which makes it hard to compare anything to them.

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-Vaaish

Hm. I beg to differ, but the proof is in the pudding, so let's see how they fare in playtest.

If you really want them as infantry close support, why not allowing Skitarii to take two or three as upgrades? That would mitigate the Minori's low DC count, and promote a slow infantry playstyle. I'm not really sure what playstyle you're looking for, of course...


Again, let's see if it is taken in playtest. Personally, I'd say that a direct-fire platform with speed 10cm is a no-starter in anything but a siege-style army. Of course, we do play with a lot of LOS-blocking terrain in the local meta, which may influence my view. Here, it is entirely too easy to render it useless for most turns.


I'd say that it's a poorer transport option than, say, 5 rhinos.


I agree on this. I also take it as a fairly strong indication that the platform is overpriced, because clearly the missile has utility. My opinion as to a good fix is on record.

Holy cow, iPad typing sucks. I'm surprised ANYTHING I wrote made sense up there.



This is something I've thought about doing but it never passes peer review. It's a pretty significant change in the relationship between the skitarii and ordinatus in the list to make the minorus a mandatory part of the formation. However, being that the Minorus is still a WE about the only thing it mitigates is the minorus breaking as easily or being as easy to assault. It can still be picked out. Technically, it is possible as things are right now. with the changes to the upgrades over the drafts I removed the restriction that each core formation take three different upgrades. So a demi-century could take 3 minorus if they wanted.



Board layout preferences can definitely influence the units you find useful. Still if you look at the ordinatus formations in the current list you can see why the problem is the minorus more than the majoris.

6DC + 6VS, 6x 30cm AP5+/AA6+ shots and slightly worse FF for 400 points
4DC + 4VS, 2x 30cm AP5+/AA6+ shots, 2x 45cm AT5+ shots and slightly better FF plus inspiring for 400 points

Even before you take weapons, the minorus formation wins out. Add in weapons and you've got the same cost for the Golgotha Majoris as you do the Quake+CLP minorus formation. I can't even say for certain that the Armageddon Majoris would win out as better than a Minorus coy armed with either Laser Blasters or Plasma Cannons for anything other than range unless you are fighting a WE heavy army.

On their own there isn't anything wrong with the majoris pricing, it's just that any way you cut it, the minorus is superior. reducing the minorus formation I think will bring it back in line with the majoris as well as take a step forward to reducing the reliance on the quake+clp. Raising the cost on the minorus just doesn't have the same effect since it doesn't really reduce the desire to spent a few more points for the quake+clp combo and it just doesn't feel right to eliminate the CLP entirely.



Any further reasoning as to why this is the case other than price? Within the list itself I think 100 points is far too cheap. Compare it to the Chimedon, 250 points to transport a demi-century. Taking a single minorus will already be 100 points less. Granted there's more at play than simply getting the formation into a vehicle, but we don't want the minorus to turn into a really cheap alternative to chimedons to shuttle demi-centuries and Sagitarii around. At just 100 points you are looking at 25cm speed demicenturies sitting in RA VS WE with inbuilt AA for only 350 points which my gut tells me is a tad too good.



I don't think this is a strong indicator that the platform is overpriced. There is a minimum cost that the combination of components is worth on it's own I think 125-150 points is pretty close to what that cost should be for an unarmed minorus. My point being people gravitate to choices that are more reliable for similar cost and a one shot missile is only seen as worth the risk when you stick it on a really cheap platform which is something the minorus really isn't. How often would deathstrike batteries be in a Guard army if the missile was stuck on a Baneblade chassis rather than a Chimera? I'd wager a whole lot less.

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-Vaaish

At least you can sip caffe latte and look cool while typing gibberish

Not mandatory, certainly. Just an optional upgrade.

Those are its primary weaknesses, too.

It's very resilient to plain shooting, so that's hardly problem.

I didn't spot that! OK, that might make a combined force more durable.

I don't disagree that Minori are better than Majoris. I just disagree as to what their actual value is - I think a 500 points Majoris is overpriced too.

Surely it would be awesomely cool to field an Ordinatus Majoris, yet I've never seen a single battle report featuring one - is this just because the official model is unobtainable? My feeling is that it is just not worth its price, in any game size.


Rhinos are more numerous, helping with combat resolution (the difference between outnumbered and outnumbering is typically the difference between victory and defeat). In addition, with Rhinos (or other small vehicles) all infantry stands can be in cover while dismounted; We play that at most two stands per DC can take advantage of being in base contact. Finally, transports already in base contact with their cargo has a better effective range, since they don't need to take a small spin around the local area to pick up everybody.


The Chimedons are vastly better than the Transport Minorus. They have much better Shooting and FF, and offer the kind of numbers that even Guard Inf Coy's start to worry about. They are easily worth 150 points more than the Minorus.

Really? It's a little weaker than a Guard Mech Inf Coy, and comparable to Eldar Guardians in Wave Serpents. 350 points seems right to me.

The minorus deathstrike is a very reliable platform; It can be depended upon to get its shot (as opposed to Guard Deathstrikes, who usually vanish in the first activation of turn 1, if their enemy has long-range assets). I'm not saying it's not better than guard deathstrikes. However, it is not twice as good, which is what the price suggests.

I'd say that depends on the price, and on the capabilities of the Baneblade after it takes its shot...

Well I'm not completely opposed to changing the points for it and over time it may become necessary as more stuff gets tried out.

A while back and it seemed that when a Majoris was considered for use, it was eventually swapped for a minorus coy simply because the minorus brought more for the points (I know this was true in my own case). However, in games where the majoris was used people said it performed well enough. That's the basis for my concentration on the minorus coy over the majoris in this revision.



I think at 350 points they are cheap enough and fast enough to saturate which would be a problem.



I think you missed the point I was attempting to make. There is only so far you can reduce the cost of the chassis to before you are undercosting it just for the sake of getting someone to take a one shot missile. IMO, the base cost of the unarmed version needs to be determined and the price of weapons adjusted based on that. I believe that cost is between 125-150 points for the minorus. (for example, a single shadowsword hull minus the cost of the Volcano Cannon ends up somewhere around 116 points) It may very well be that you can't price the support missile low enough without discounting the chassis itself and that's something I find problematic.



for the sake of argument, 2x HB is all it's got after the missiles are launched, and we price it around 250 for two of them.

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-Vaaish

Playtest will tell, of course.


By "Saturation", you mean something like 6 of them? They can't really stand alone, some AA and AT is needed too. It's hardly popcorn...


Well, my estimate puts a naked Minorus at 100 points at most, which I think is fair, relative to the rather more resilient Imperial SHT tank hull (which can even get a Fearless upgrade for free). At 100 points, plus 50 for a missile, I think the value of the initial reliability is captured.

That sounds like a overly good deal, really. 50 points extra over the Chimeras, for a platform that won't get shot to pieces by a random 3BP barrage or casual air attack? They're is even useful afterwards, a few marches will see them sitting on an objective and being generally hard to shift. I'd say 300 points was more appropriate for a hypothetical SHT Deathstrike Battery (unsurprisingly, this is also the price I'd see a Minorus Deathstrike battery at).

yep.



It's more like 8 possible with 7 most likely. AT yes, and that can fall into the extra points for robots if you like, but you forget that the minorus each has AA built in with the HB. It's not going to toast a Thunderhawk, but it IS going to prevent it from assaulting without BM's.

By saturation I mean getting enough on the field that you make it difficult for an opponent to eat through enough to cap objectives. With 7 on the table you have enough to cover all three objectives in your half with 20 units and two AA armed WE as well has having an extra free to cross the line to prevent TSNP and contest an objective to boot.



I'd estimate the minorus chassis better than a SHT. You lose a hit and gain two that regenerate and you get AA built in. slightly worse save but side by side I the minorus pulls ahead especially against MW and especially TK hits where the first two do nothing to a minorus and would drop a SHT to 1dc.



You and I have a very different definition of a really good deal.

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-Vaaish

Ok, had a game vs guard with the changes this afternoon. On one hand I had horrible rolling for everything (failed an activation with a 1 and then failed the reroll with a second 1 for starters) but on the other I didn't end up doing horrible although the game was pretty bloody.

Reduction of the minorus to two units definitely made the quake +CLP far less desirable. I lost the initiative and lost the CLP to a deathstrike, but with 15cm speed the remaining minorus did still manage to maneuver around to hit the guard a couple of times (horrible rolling again, got 7 attacks from the template, and managed to kill a whopping 2 infantry)

I definitely could see using things like two volcano cannons or two plasma cannons in a coy for good results.

I also took an minorus as an upgrade to a sagitarii formation. The single volacano cannon didn't get many good targets all game, but again something like a triple turbolaser or even gatling blaster would work fairly well. seemed a tad pricey for a volcano cannon and one d3 damage isn't enough to frighten too much.

Robots in general seemed pretty good still. The AA bubble was nice and their SR worked well. Crusaders performed a bit more on par with what they should be.

I'm sure I'll think of more as I go but for now that's my thoughts after the game.

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-Vaaish

Vaaish, how close are you to releasing the next version of the skitarii list? Also would you mind sharing your force composition used in the above game, would be good to get a feel for how you're structuring your army choices.

I've basically got the document ready to go, I just haven't released it yet to see if there were any further comments or playtests with the proposed changes and to see about getting some more of the unit datasheets formatted and photos taken.

Please remember that at this point my choices are made to test particular combinations instead of trying to make the most competitive list possible. That said, here's the list:

Demi-century + Magos
Sagitarii + Minorus (volcano Cannon)
Minorus Coy. (clp & quake)
Crusaders
Colossus
Colossus
Praetorians
Macharius
Warhounds

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-Vaaish