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Legio Destructor Preview (Cut-down Supplement list)
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Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:05 am ]
Post subject:  Legio Destructor Preview (Cut-down Supplement list)
Here's a preview of the cut-down version of the AMTL list I'm intending to use in the Epic: Mechanicus Supplement.

There are various changes but the major ones are:

1 - Single Warhounds are gone, only pairs remain.
2 - Laser Burner removed (Overlaps with Melta Cannon)
3 - Carapace Landing Pad removed (It made Support Missiles unnessesary)
4 - Plasma Cannon removed (Doesn't exist in the modern background)
5 - Weapon configurations restricted somewhat largely in order to reflect the modern background
6 - Due to #5, the "Titan Weapons" 25pt surcharge rule could be removed


Note that this list will not overwrite or replace the NetEA War Gryphonnes list, it simply represents a cut-down variant list, a "director's cut" list if you like.

By my eye, balance is likely to be slightly improved from the War Gryphonnes list.


My ears are open for comments, thanks.

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Author:  Angel_of_Caliban [ Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Legio Destructor Preview (Cut-down Supplement list)
Why?

Why not just use the current AMTL list??
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Legio Destructor Preview (Cut-down Supplement list)
Angel_of_Caliban wrote:
Why?

Why not just use the current AMTL list??

Because the NetEA list has been forced to cater to almost every single possible Titan configuration GW has thought up since 1989.

In consequence it's not as finely balanced as it could be.

I'd rather the list variant I include in the Supplement be as balanced as possible.
Author:  GlynG [ Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Legio Destructor Preview (Cut-down Supplement list)
I mostly like your changes to OGBM but I'd strongly prefer the supplement to use the existing Net-EA Titan Legions list myself.

The proposed list adds nothing new and is just a limited subset of the proper Titan Legions list. I really don't think that's a good idea. If yourself or others wish to select your titans following current 40k titan rules then feel free but please just theme your titans/armies that way rather than forcing it. Lists in an online/published supplement will likely get more attention and the proper community developed Titan Legion list should be used and showcased, rather than creating unnecessary duplication and confusion as to which list to use.

The rules for current W40k weapons were a selection the studio came up with when writing Apocalypse anyway, they aren't set in stone for the rest of time as all titans can possibly have. Forge World are more likely to make weapons for them first, but if they're still going and selling well in a few years then it's very likely they'll expand and add back in classic weapons like Plasma Cannons, Landing Pads, etc.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Legio Destructor Preview (Cut-down Supplement list)
Quote:
The proposed list adds nothing new and is just a limited subset of the proper Titan Legions list.

Very much so, that's why I've referred to it as my "director's cut", and not my "director's padding" version.

Quote:
the proper community developed Titan Legion list should be used and showcased

I think the primary NetEA list (War Gryphonnes) has come about as far as it can.

I can't get much more balance into it without changing the weapon restrictions and fiddling with the special rules, and it has a couple of issues (Certain weapon prices, the game-breaking "play for the winning draw" playstyle) that I am simply not happy with. There seems to be resistance to changing both of these things.

That's fine, the NetEA list can remain as the NetEA community wants it to be... but that doesn't preclude me creating a more limited & balanced variant list for the Supplement.

I'd rather that a balanced list was showcased, than one that has known, serious issues.
Author:  Flogus [ Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Legio Destructor Preview (Cut-down Supplement list)
The "standard" Reaver (Carapace MRL, arm Turbolasers) is not playable with this list :(

I agree some things (like the suppression of the carapace landing pad or the differences made between weapon emplacments), but suppressing weapons (like the lasburner or the plasma cannon) just because ForgeWorld hasn't produced (yet!), ... well, I don't agree.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Legio Destructor Preview (Cut-down Supplement list)
Quote:
The "standard" Reaver (Carapace MRL, arm Turbolasers) is not playable with this list :(

Correct.
However, it's easy to proxy as a Reaver with a pair of Laser Blasters.

Turbolasers have been very strictly set as carapace weapons only; The standard configuration Reaver has been removed from the background, and is extremely unlikely to ever appear again.

Quote:
I agree some things (like the suppression of the carapace landing pad or the differences made between weapon emplacments), but suppressing weapons (like the lasburner or the plasma cannon) just because ForgeWorld hasn't produced (yet!), ... well, I don't agree.

By my count, I removed 7 weapons in the transition from AMTL 2.0 to AMTL 3.0 ; would you have objected to those too?
Author:  Vaaish [ Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Legio Destructor Preview (Cut-down Supplement list)
I'm curious as to why the melta in place of the laser burner? IIRC the Lasburner is the more common choice in titan lists. Is it because there aren't modern stats for it?
Author:  Onyx [ Thu Sep 29, 2011 12:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Legio Destructor Preview (Cut-down Supplement list)
GlynG wrote:
I'd strongly prefer the supplement to use the existing Net-EA Titan Legions list myself.

+1
This could just end up with 2 Titan lists out there when 1 will sufice. We already have a list and it seems best to stick with it.

Just my 2c.
Author:  frogbear [ Thu Sep 29, 2011 2:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Legio Destructor Preview (Cut-down Supplement list)
It is not uncommon in Australian tourneys (in Victoria at least) to restrict the AMTL as it appears players/organisers find it to be unbalanced.

If that is the case (is Victoria alone in this?) then some change is necessary. In the tournaments I have attended here, only once have a seen the titan list used and that was in the very first tournament run under the current rules and not restricted.

It is my guess that no-one has seen them worth taking while restricted.
Author:  Simulated Knave [ Thu Sep 29, 2011 3:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Legio Destructor Preview (Cut-down Supplement list)
Restricted how?
Author:  frogbear [ Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Legio Destructor Preview (Cut-down Supplement list)
Simulated Knave wrote:
Restricted how?


Have not looked specifically other than I know that the Imperator was not allowed in the last one....
Author:  Angel_of_Caliban [ Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Legio Destructor Preview (Cut-down Supplement list)
frogbear wrote:
Simulated Knave wrote:
Restricted how?


Have not looked specifically other than I know that the Imperator was not allowed in the last one....

That's not recommended for Tournament use tho? So that should be right?

I agree that the supplement should just use the NetEA Full AMTL List. If these books are to help, support and expanded the NetEA lists then we shouldn't use altered ones that wouldn't be in the NetEA Project or used in an NetEA Event.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Legio Destructor Preview (Cut-down Supplement list)
Quote:
I agree that the supplement should just use the NetEA Full AMTL List.

It's not balanced due to a couple of factors, and the community apparently doesn't want to fix those factors.

That's fine, if the community wants an overpowered AMTL list then that's what they want.

But that doesn't mean that I have to use the known overpowered list in the Supplement.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Legio Destructor Preview (Cut-down Supplement list)
Vaaish wrote:
I'm curious as to why the melta in place of the laser burner? IIRC the Lasburner is the more common choice in titan lists. Is it because there aren't modern stats for it?

Yup, it's because the Lasburner doesn't exist in the modern background.
There's still plenty of choice for weaponry, including the Melta Cannon which duplicates a lot of its functionality.
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