From my experience AMTL are a list that is difficult to beat but also difficult to lose to. The list quoted has only 6 ground formations, really these are the only ones that matter.
- spread the objectives
- stall until the titans have moved. Most lists have more than 9 formations
- hide behind terrain
- pick off isolated warhounds
- feed the titans scouts so they have to burn activations killing them before they can move

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this.... titans sustaining or going on OW aren't moving and that's almost always good

using marines I'd be looking to hide as much as possible, burning activations, then smacking a warhound with terminators and recycling them, tbolts on cap are unlikely to shoot you down, make sure you subsequently intercept the CAP formations so they don't do it again

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problem with hiding is, at least in my experience, that there's usually one Titan that has this indirect fire thingy, which can then move (double) and launch a terrifying barrage. Usually costs you a formation, and together with the high move and equally potent firepower of the Warhounds, usually by round 2 you don't have more activations than the Titans anymore...

Well aside from the fact that the list posted doesn't have any barrage, yes I agree this is an issue with the NetEA list. Normally indirect fire is useless unless you sustain, it has no effect if you double. So that should mean an artillery titan is one less titan moving towards your objectives. In the NetEA list this is not the case, you basically get the ability without needing to sacrifice tactical flexibility.

To respond to the list as posted, personally I see its weaknesses as an inability to hit the things it needs to (just hide - it has no indirect fire), and 6 ground activations all of which are killable. It should be possible to reduce the AMTL to 2 ground formations by the time it's their turn to activate in turn 3.

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As Kyrt has said I was responding to the list posted which, in my opinion, is pretty weak and easily hidden from.

Regarding an indirect artillery titan
- spread out as with normal artillery
- use cover as then 4+ is the best he can be hitting on
- there are now only 5 units that you have to worry about moving
- use scout Zoo to stop sustaining or at least burn an activation clearing the scouts

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Steve the netea carapace landing pad's indirect fire doesn't need sustain, but TBH It's not as bad as it seems as if it's doubling then it's hitting on 6's.

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7's if the target is in cover.

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Thanks guys. The list I will possibly be facing will have an Apoc launcher so 3BP Disrupt.

mspaetuf's view is what I imagine to happen. Atension is an excellent general.

Tau vs AMTL batrep here:

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=28376

Feedback

OK played a game versus the AMTL for the first time with my Tau. Decided if shooting was required, the Tau should be best at it.

How wrong I was.

My question is - Why has the AMTL list been approved?

Some of the weapon combinations are ... questionable.

For example-

The Plasma Destructor - a 75cm 6x MW 2+ slow firing weapon for only 75 points?
I wish my 75 point Shas O or Space Marine Hunter could fire 6x 2+ MW shots .... yes I know this doesn't compare but I know what I'd rather have....

"Ahh but it's Slow Firing," I hear you say. It doesn't matter when you can practically wipe an entire formation off the table on one turn even on a double move. Fun it is not. Not all lists have 14 units in them like Guard etc. to soak the fire. A lot of lists are 4-6 units.

Does it truly need to be 6x MW 2+...? How about 3x instead? That's still practically 3 auto kills on most formations and 75 points might even be too cheap for that.

Add this weapon to two Gatling Blasters (6x AP4+/AT4+ for only 25 points each!!!) or TLD combo (4x AP5+/AT3+ for only 25 points each) and it seriously gets to the point of OTT.

A Plasma Destructor plus 2 Gatling Blasters for only 50 points more than the cost of a normal Reaver in all other lists? Face a normal Reaver off against this load - which would win? I'm sure the two weapons would be close to even on shooting (12 AT4 - avg. 6 hits vs 8 AT3 - avg. 5ish hits) but then you essentially add a 50 point Plasma destructor (all things even-ish after putting the two GBs on). That's not balanced when the standard titan gets a rocket launcher....

Hypaspists - AMTL got a good deal with these guys. 8 units with CC/FF5+, Armour 5+, 30cm AP5+ shooting and two "you-beaut!" Secutor units with Leader, Commander, CC3+and base contact MWEA +1, FF 3+ (with MW no less) 4+ RA saves. All transported in a Titan and all for a nifty 200 points?

Now compare this with 225 points for a Fire Warrior formation (close to similar stats for the base grunts)....

Turbo Laser Destructors and Warhounds
Surely this weapon is not a Scout Titan weapon...? In an already - some would say, over powered unit - putting a 60cm weapon on a Warhound is a bit, mmm well, whiffy. Double up 60 and fire 60cm to boot. Where is the balance? Warhounds don't need to Advance because they still hit a lot when they double. The TLD on them makes this worse. Again, put this Warhound spec (and for only 25 points more) against a normal Warhound - which would win the fight?

The feeling I got after just one game (Ok not a great spread of experience, I will grant you, but it's what immediately seemed to stand out) is that it just seems there's too many nasty weapons combos (and perhaps incorrect pricing) in this list. I'm not sure if this was the intent for the list but it was a huge shock to just take off half a formation or more from one formation's shooting. Basically, are all the OTT weapon combos really necessary when fighting standard lists? Could the titans be more balanced and grant perhaps more activations instead?

I liked the Forge Knights - they felt a fairly balanced unit type. Good armour, reasonable weapon range and average speed for AVs.

I would like to see more of the infantry formations as there's a bunch of cool options but I think with the weapons on the titans they might take a back seat.

Hey Dobbsy,

I'm sorry your game was so... traumatic. I don't really have time for a detailed post, but I did have a chance to read through your battle report. I will say I've never played with or against the Tau list before so I don't have a lot to go on for expectations, but honestly the game was a bit surprising considering the track record the AMTL list has in games up in the battle report thread. I know the AMTL list has been played extensively against IG and Marines but I can't say I've ever seen a report against Tau and the result is concerning. I'll try to do a more detailed post tomorrow if I'm not swamped.

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Sure, it was a couple weeks ago but the brief version is:
2 games vs AMTL using Biel Tan Eldar.

Biel Tan were fairly standard tournament lists (completely untailored) with Phantom (upgraded to Warlock in game 2), 2x Void Spinners, Shining Spears launched from Storm Serpent, Guardians, Windriders, etc

AMTL: 4 Reavers (1 indirect, 3 with whatever config gives the most ranged firepower and around 18 dice in combat; I could enquire if exact list is required)

Game 1
The AMTL almost immediately took out the Phantom with their long range guns. I got the shining spears into combat very early vs the prepped BTS Reaver early usuing a Storm serpent march followed by an assault, but lost it due to armour and quantity of dice rolled in return.
The game rapidly degenerated since despite only having four models in the army whatever the Reavers pointed at disappeared from the table. We ended it early, with few Eldar survivors and no AMTL casualties.

Game 2
I adjusted since it's likely I didn't take the AMTL seriously enough in game one for two reasons:
1) Only 4 models, so it looks like a beginner's novelty list and I'd been unprepared for huge volumes of long range macro and AT/AP weapons and assault ability from the same units.
2) I've only ever lost one game with Eldar before, so usually manage to pull it back whatever the opponent fields.

In this game I tried to keep more of a reserve for objective grabbing. The Reavers vapourised the Warlock (upgraded from phantom) in their 2nd activation despite it being in cover, broke/killed the hiding units with indirect firepower and won combat vs shining spears again, and then with the Guardian/Avatar/Wraithguards.

My opponent played well but not perfectly, and I was able to briefly hold his blitz but the game rapidly degenerated since despite only having four models in the army whatever the Reavers pointed at disappeared from the table. The game ended 2-0 at turn 3 with few Eldar survivors and no AMTL casualties.


That doesn't mean it's unbeatable (maybe hiding absolutely everything and just losing 1 unit a turn to indirect until a turn 3 grab would work), and doesn't mean this particular list was a real take-all-comers (no scouts, low activations - although that's fixable by going 3 Reavers + filler).

It does mean that I don't think I have ever seen such a superb selection of long-range mix and match firepower and assault capability, and that I understand why these toys are usually limited in lists.

Hmmm.... When we did the playtesting of this list i never did so good. Most wins where on points. I can't agree that the list is so overpowered based on my actual gaming experience.

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YMMV. I have the privilege of playing some extremely competitive opponents who make an effort to optimise lists to the max.

Which, whether you like it or not in friendly games, does mean they make great playtesters for armies with a wide variety of options like this one.

I've not spent any time trying to push the limit on this list, but even at first glance 2,525 pts gets you 3 Plasma-Destructor Reavers who can put out 54 Macro Weapon 2+ shots at 75cm range, assault the survivors turn 2 and fire another 54 MW in turn 3.
(there's a 25pt surcharge for taking 3 identical weapons, well worth it if you want hyper-efficient units)
I guess you'd want something like sentinel formations and thunderbolts with the remaining points.


Sounds nice and simple to play.
What sort of lists did you play test using?

The batreps are in the battle report section. I used a mix of warhounds and reavers usually. Taking 3 reavers and kitting them to the max puts your activation count very, very low.

And when people actually uses the tactics that people have suggested in this thread it's very hard to get in LoS to deliver the potential 54 MW hits.

It should be near suicidal to attack titans head on. They're titans for christ sake! But low activations and slow movement really makes it hard for them to control the whole board...

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Everything Mordoten said

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