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Norn Queen Report #3

Chroma

Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 1:23 am

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(Evil and Chaos @ Jul. 30 2006,01:06)

QUOTE

- Trygon:
?- Large Scything Talons: +2 MW CC attacks.
?- Bio-Electric field / D3 shots /20cm / AP3+/AT6+ / Ignore Cover
?- Invulnerable Save, Teleport.

You still need to get rid of teleport as it's almost completely useless for the Tyrgon...

I don't think anyone is going to allow teleporting Synapse Nodes and Trygons as fair/balanced... *laugh*

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 1:29 am

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*chuckles evilly*

I'll let that one lie there for a while longer, gather a few more opinions on it.

Seems most people dislike the idea atm, but I'm looking for something to strongly differentiate it from the Scythed Hierodule, I don't know, is infiltrate enough?

I quite like the idea of a 'teleporting' minor War Engine, that can pop up into any formation on the board. (Since it's not independent you couldn't teleport it anywhere out of synapse range). It's certainly unique and adds a lot of character.

It would have to be pointed appropriately of course.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 10:44 am

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(Hena @ Jul. 30 2006,07:14)

QUOTE

I still think that variable weaponry is better for hierophant, than that fixed version. And I want to keep the breath weapon on it. As long as the variable allows your version everyone should be happy.

I don't think the model will be coming with variable weaponry, so it'll require conversions for the newbies, but in principle I'm not against it.

To be balanced with the Bio-Cannon (Which I assume it'd be replacing?), it'd have to be AP6+ or something.

Alternatively you could pay an upgrade cost to get access to the breath weapon in addition to the Bio-Cannons.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:10 am

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Agreed, I was just thinking of the future, starting small and all that. Having options beyond the basic fit that comes for sale is a good thing, in my opinion, it's just that the basic version should be the standard 'pattern', anything we invent beyond that is cookie, but ie: having all Hierophants have the breath weapon as standard is heavily against the background.

So for the Hierophant upgrades, we'd be looking at:

Basic weapons fit:

- Huge Scything Talons: +3 MW CC attacks.
- 2x Bio Cannons / 45cm / AP3+/AT4+ / Ignore Cover

And then we'd have:

1. Ripper Tentacles - +d6EA (Upgrade, replaces the bio-cannons for free)
2. Monstrous Claws - +2EA TK (d3) (Upgrade, replaces the bio-cannons for free)
3. Pyro-Acidic Spray - Template, AP5+/AT6+ Ignores Cover (Additional weapon, costs 100 points)

How's that?

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:31 am

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Alternatively, put the Bio-Acid spray on a weapon mount instead, no reason to keep it as a 'breath' weapon.

Personally, I'd favour this, as (as I mentioned yesterday) 'breath' weapons of this magnitude are unheard of in the Tyranid background. The only current examples of breath weapons in 40k are close-combat acid spitting and the like, no ranged capability at all. The weapon mounts, conversely, are well known to have this kind of ability.

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ragnarok

Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 1:23 pm

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(Evil and Chaos @ Jul. 30 2006,01:06[quote=ragnarok,Jul. 30 2006,00:56)

QUOTE

I still say 1 or 2 MW attacks plus the 2 or 3 normal attacks. ?should be a few dead units and makes it stuggle against tanks. ?I've failed to even glance a vindicator side armour once, though the Trygon was also fighting a dread and a dozen termies at the time.

Your poor luck has led you to underestimate the pure pimpness that is an engraged Trygon. ?

[/quote"]
Very poor luck. ?Rolled a double 1 for amour penatration on the vindicator, two attacks on the dread merely tore off its close combat weapon and the 3 normal and three tail wounding attacks only took down 3 terminators.

I find that the Tryon is a shock unit, much like elite fexi. ?They are designed to run in, kill a few things then die, but distract the enemy. ?The trygon has it worst since it can be shot whilst in combat.

Mini update:

- Scythed Hierodule:
?- Acid Spray /15cm / AP2+/AT6+ / Ignore Cover
?- Huge Scything Talons: +3 MW CC attacks.

It shouldn't have soo mnay MW attacks. The hierodule is desinged to absorb incoming fire rather than smash apart the defenses, that is what the carnies that follow it are for.

- Barbed Hierodule:
?- Twin-Linked Bio Cannon / 45cm / AP2+/AT3+ / Ignore Cover
?- Scything Talons: +1 MW CC attacks.

I don't think the barbed should have any MW CC attacks, maybe +1 CC without the MW. They just don't have the punch. A mere 2 (3 on the charge) S10 attacks. My smog fex can do better than that, and my siege fex can triple the number of attacks.

- Hierophant:
?- Huge Scything Talons: +3 MW CC attacks.
?- 2x Bio Cannons / 45cm / AP3+/AT4+ / Ignore Cover
?- Lash Whips (The first CC Macro-Weapon hit against the Hierophant in a combat is discarded.)

I think that the Hierophants basic attacks should be lance. rather than +3MW. It has enough attacks to cause quite a bit of damageto any infantry that attacks it and the lance can represent how it can spear heavy tanks with its legs.

I would prefer the bio cannons to have some more umpf (is that the right word). At the moment I would prefer to have some scything talons of the beast and make it pure CC.

I also don't think lash whips should have their own stat line. instead they should be worked into the armour of the beast.

- Trygon:
?- Large Scything Talons: +2 MW CC attacks.
?- Bio-Electric field / D3 shots /20cm / AP3+/AT6+ / Ignore Cover
?- Invulnerable Save, Teleport.

The only problems with this boy is the teleport since he can only teleport in with others of his kind or with nodes. I really prefer infiltrator.

I'm not too sure about the inv save either. He only gets a 6+ in 40K which really sucks.

- Harridan:
?- Twin-Linked Bio Cannon / 45cm / AP2+/AT3+ / Ignore Cover
?- Scything Talons: +1 MW CC attacks.

I like it.

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Ilushia

Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 2:10 pm

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(Evil and Chaos @ Jul. 30 2006,05:44)

QUOTE

(Hena @ Jul. 30 2006,07:14)

QUOTE

I'd make the template-weapon be AP4+/AT6+ myself. Ignore Cover. Basically the same as the inferno gun for the Warhound in the AMTL list. The Bio-Cannon is not going to be as good against infantry, but will typically be MUCH better against tanks (Which seems reasonable to me). With 2x AP 3+/AT3+ you'll hit and kill tanks far more consistently. And it's not bad against infantry either. If the Biocannon comes out underpowered we could perhaps move it to 3x AP3+/AT3+. But I think it's ability to rip through tanks will make up for it's lacking against Infantry. Combind with the longer range (The flame template is only about 20cm long. I was figuring the Bio-Cannon would be around 45cm range or so) I think it'll come out about even.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 3:20 pm

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I'd make the template-weapon be AP4+/AT6+ myself. Ignore Cover. Basically the same as the inferno gun for the Warhound in the AMTL list.

The problem is, then you're left with a 250 point Hierophant, with DC-6, 4+RA, regeneration, MW CC attacks and two inferno gun. Far too good for the price imho, noone will ever take any other configuration. Either the bio-acid attack needs to be less powerful than the inferno gun, or you need to pay a price premium for it?

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Ilushia

Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 3:24 pm

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I wouldn't consider it under-priced. For 250 I can get a Warhound which moves 30cm, has 3 DC, 2 Void Shields which I always get 1 back each turn no matter what, and carries 2 inferno guns if I want it to. I wouldn't consider them to be that good, to be honest. They're very short range, 20cm is the VERY tip of the weapon so their effective range is more like 15cm. Compare that with a Bio-Cannon and you're looking at triple the range. On a double you'll be moving 50 shooting 15 so 65cm range... But be hitting on 5+/7+, so it's not like it's very accurate at all. Just hedge back it's melee attacks to reasonable levels, maybe strip it's CC MW attacks completely (The titans in 40K ALSO strike at very high strength and ignore armor but don't get MW by default). Being able to potentially kill 6 stands of infantry with basic attacks seems reasonable to portray it's melee prowess to me.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 3:34 pm

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[quote="ragnarok,Jul. 30 2006,13:23"][/quote]

Mini update:

- Scythed Hierodule:
- Acid Spray /15cm / AP2+/AT6+ / Ignore Cover
- Huge Scything Talons: +3 MW CC attacks.

It shouldn't have soo mnay MW attacks. The hierodule is desinged to absorb incoming fire rather than smash apart the defenses, that is what the carnies that follow it are for.

It's intended for both, according to the background. Bear in mind it'll probably never actually reach CC most of the time in assaults, since it's not particularly fast.

- Barbed Hierodule:
- Twin-Linked Bio Cannon / 45cm / AP2+/AT3+ / Ignore Cover
- Scything Talons: +1 MW CC attacks.

I don't think the barbed should have any MW CC attacks, maybe +1 CC without the MW. They just don't have the punch. A mere 2 (3 on the charge) S10 attacks. My smog fex can do better than that, and my siege fex can triple the number of attacks.

I think a single MW attack is justified on a Barbed Hierodule.

I'd give it a worse CC stat than the Scythed Hierodule to compensate for any percieved imbalance.

- Hierophant:
- Huge Scything Talons: +3 MW CC attacks.
- 2x Bio Cannons / 45cm / AP3+/AT4+ / Ignore Cover
- Lash Whips (The first CC Macro-Weapon hit against the Hierophant in a combat is discarded.)

I think that the Hierophants basic attacks should be lance. rather than +3MW. It has enough attacks to cause quite a bit of damageto any infantry that attacks it and the lance can represent how it can spear heavy tanks with its legs.

A Hierophant is just as dangerous in CC as any Greater Daemon. It should indeed be significantly more powerful in CC than it is at range, thus 3 MW attacks is justified imho.

I would prefer the bio cannons to have some more umpf (is that the right word). At the moment I would prefer to have some scything talons of the beast and make it pure CC.

Agreed, the bio-cannons look significantly underpowered now that MW is gone.

I think 2x multi-shot could be the way to go, with a better to-hit value on the twin-linked ones. (Thus a Hierophant would have 4 shots, a Barbed Hierodule 2 shots)

I also don't think lash whips should have their own stat line. instead they should be worked into the armour of the beast.

Didn't lash whips used to work in a similar manner to my proposal under the E:40k rules, only against TK CC weapons?

- Trygon:
- Large Scything Talons: +2 MW CC attacks.
- Bio-Electric field / D3 shots /20cm / AP3+/AT6+ / Ignore Cover
- Invulnerable Save, Teleport.

The only problems with this boy is the teleport since he can only teleport in with others of his kind or with nodes. I really prefer infiltrator.

Looks like Infiltrate may be the way to go, though as I've said, that basically just makes the Trygon into a very slightly different Scythed Hierodule, which might not be a good thing.

I'm not too sure about the inv save either. He only gets a 6+ in 40K which really sucks.

I think it's fluffy enough to be justified.

- Harridan:
- Twin-Linked Bio Cannon / 45cm / AP2+/AT3+ / Ignore Cover
- Scything Talons: +1 MW CC attacks.

I like it.

Note that with the latest proposed changes, the Harridan would have 2x shots from the bio-cannons. I think DC 3 was on the cards too.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 3:45 pm

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(Ilushia @ Jul. 30 2006,15:24)

QUOTE

Titans in 40k mostly have extremely negligable CC attacks (A single 'stomp' attack at I1 WS1 iirc), the exception being the Tyranid Bio-Titans, which are normally at their most potent in CC. (Ie: 6 S10 ignore Armour save attacks from a charging Hierophant, plus automatic extra 'normal' attacks against every model in base-to-base, plus the enemy loses some of their multiple attacks, etc...).

Bio Titans in 40k very often have two distinct levels of attack in the rules, and the background further represents this. (I seem to remember a quote from IA:IV about the Hierodules being covered in sharp spines so even just moving through an enemy formation will inflict damage & light attacks that the creature did not conciously intend).

As for the Warhound being comparable, note that short-range weapon Warhounds can be quite easily broken, should it be required, and void shields get no saving throw. A DC6 Hierodule (with superior armour save protection) has no such consideration. It will keep coming, and unless it's killed, it will get off that double-template shot.

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Ilushia

Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 3:57 pm

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So it gets the double-template shot against say IG infantry, manages to get the ENTIRE formation under it, all 13 stands, with both templates. 26 rolls later it averages... 8.6 kills. Significantly less then it's point value out of that... And that's against an enemy with no armor saves and assuming it could actually hit EVERYONE with both templates (Nearly impossible). Comparatively the Bio-Cannons at 2 shots each... Would see about 5.3 kills over 2 turns (The time to reach it's target and fire if they're reasonably placed). But the bio-cannons can also do that to, say, tanks. Chimeras. Rhinos. Land Speeders. Etc. The flamers are worthless against that. Usually you'll get maybe 2-3 stands under the flamers.. Meaning perhaps 2 kills against most opponents between both flamers on a double. That's painful. But not that great. The primary use of the flame-template is to get rid of things in cover (Like Siegemasters). Not to kill general-use units. I'd MUCH rather have the bio-cannons against most targets. 4x AP3+/AT3+ 45cm range on a 25cm move-speed 4+ RA monster sounds like a great deal to me. Puts out as much AP fire as a Warhound, and better AT (Well, sortof, since the Warhound has the MW shots). Infact, if anything I might well consider the flamers LESS useful then the bio-cannons... I've used Inferno Guns a lot. And I can say it's VERY hard to stop a warhound from getting inside range, given a double+shoot is effectively 80cm of range. And they're not the least bit unbalancing. They rarely get very many kills, their primary use is burning things in cover which you don't really wana see horrible to-hit rolls against.

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