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Dwarf Supreme Alternate Damage tables

 Post subject: Re: Dwarf Supreme Alternate Damage tables
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 7:44 am 
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primarch wrote:
Cool! Heck, I may do chaos versus tyranids just to use them both!


Not saying that it hasn't happened, but I've never seen a battle report with these 2 forces so I'd very much like you to Picard*.

*Picard: verb put (a decision, plan, agreement, etc.) into effect; to "make it so".

Source: Oxford dictionary

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 Post subject: Re: Dwarf Supreme Alternate Damage tables
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 8:26 am 
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Anyway, I playtested the damage tables yesterday and on the whole I enjoyed playing the new charts. I do have a couple of observations;

1) Leg hits on Eldar Titans. I rolled 11 on my damage roll against the Eldar Titan leg and celebrated thinking that I had destroyed the swine. Neither of us could believe it when we referred to the tables and it didn't. A 1 in 36 chance (of rolling double 6) seems unduly harsh. A roll of 10+ (if not less) on any other location seems to be a killshot. There is a 1 in 6 chance of rolling of 10+ on 2D6 chance which I think would strike a good balance.

2) Gargant Magazine/Ammo location hits: This was a favourite location on my Gargant for being targeted. One problem I noticed was that we were merrily creating 1D3 fires for successive critical hits on the location which we probably shouldn't have. It was only later that I spotted in the Fire Table, one of the results states; "The fire reaches the magazines! Roll on the Magazine damage table for each intact magazine. The Gargant can’t move or fire its belly gun and all weapons have a -1 to hit modifier. " Am I right to take from this that each Magazine/Ammo location can only be destroyed once (much like a weapon)? If so, does the same apply to Hull location hits? What I'm wondering here is if you are lucky enough to put all of the fires out and there are numerous destroyed locations, is there not the possibility that the Gargant could escape the battle unscathed merely down to the opponent running out of ways to start fires?

3) There were 5 fires in total blazing in my Gargant, 2 of which had came from the internal ammo explosions, which meant I had to roll on the Fire Table immediately. I rolled Results 1-3 (should be 2-3) on the Fire Table state: "With a few scorched Gretchin, the fires are brought under control and put out." While I agree that the new fires which sparked this immediate roll on the table should have been brought under control, I was surprised that all of the fires were put out. In fairness, the chances of rolling 2-3 are only 1 in 12 so I suppose this isn't a huge problem. My one suggestion would be that 1D3 fires are put out, rather than all - no matter how many - of them.

The fire rules are those which I feel need need some further work and clarification. I'd also like to see fire control rules i.e. repair rolls for the end of each turn that might put some options out there for putting out the flames.

This may feel like I'm attacking your tables DS, but to reiterate, we did enjoy using them! These are just a few points which I thought worth raising, I hope you aren't feeling despondent about this as a result. Once again, I did appreciate all of your efforts with this project!

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 Post subject: Re: Dwarf Supreme Alternate Damage tables
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:34 pm 
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The Bissler wrote:
primarch wrote:
Cool! Heck, I may do chaos versus tyranids just to use them both!


Not saying that it hasn't happened, but I've never seen a battle report with these 2 forces so I'd very much like you to Picard*.

*Picard: verb put (a decision, plan, agreement, etc.) into effect; to "make it so".

Source: Oxford dictionary


Hi!

I have not done one in many years. Like Ork versus chaos they are very interesting affairs with lots of close combat.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Dwarf Supreme Alternate Damage tables
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:54 pm 
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Hi!

Quote:
1) Leg hits on Eldar Titans. I rolled 11 on my damage roll against the Eldar Titan leg and celebrated thinking that I had destroyed the swine. Neither of us could believe it when we referred to the tables and it didn't. A 1 in 36 chance (of rolling double 6) seems unduly harsh. A roll of 10+ (if not less) on any other location seems to be a killshot. There is a 1 in 6 chance of rolling of 10+ on 2D6 chance which I think would strike a good balance.


I'd agree it may be too high. I did not have the table when I did my game and used a 10+ for the leg being blown off.

Quote:
2) Gargant Magazine/Ammo location hits: This was a favourite location on my Gargant for being targeted. One problem I noticed was that we were merrily creating 1D3 fires for successive critical hits on the location which we probably shouldn't have. It was only later that I spotted in the Fire Table, one of the results states; "The fire reaches the magazines! Roll on the Magazine damage table for each intact magazine. The Gargant can’t move or fire its belly gun and all weapons have a -1 to hit modifier. " Am I right to take from this that each Magazine/Ammo location can only be destroyed once (much like a weapon)? If so, does the same apply to Hull location hits? What I'm wondering here is if you are lucky enough to put all of the fires out and there are numerous destroyed locations, is there not the possibility that the Gargant could escape the battle unscathed merely down to the opponent running out of ways to start fires?


Each ammo location can be destroyed only once. After that hits to that location should function as "hull". So after each ammo location is gone they can't "explode anymore".

As for a gargant being lucky enough to explode all its ammo and put out its fires, that CAN happen. It's a feature not a bug. ;)

The gargants advantage is durability. Its slow, weapons are relatively short ranged and it doesn't have the massively destructive weapons Imperials and Eldar have. But they can take punishment like no other.

Quote:
3) There were 5 fires in total blazing in my Gargant, 2 of which had came from the internal ammo explosions, which meant I had to roll on the Fire Table immediately. I rolled Results 1-3 (should be 2-3) on the Fire Table state: "With a few scorched Gretchin, the fires are brought under control and put out." While I agree that the new fires which sparked this immediate roll on the table should have been brought under control, I was surprised that all of the fires were put out. In fairness, the chances of rolling 2-3 are only 1 in 12 so I suppose this isn't a huge problem. My one suggestion would be that 1D3 fires are put out, rather than all - no matter how many - of them.


I agree. DS, since now all gargant have the capability to put out fires they should reduce a them, not put them all out. 1d3 per successful roll to put them out is enough. It means a gargant will never entirely put out a bunch a fires, but will continue to function.

Quote:
The fire rules are those which I feel need need some further work and clarification. I'd also like to see fire control rules i.e. repair rolls for the end of each turn that might put some options out there for putting out the flames.


Gargants don't have repair systems, except for the mega-gargant (and honors). Unless you are propoing to add "riggers" to all gargants. Not a bad idea, I have though of that myself in the past.

Without getting too complicated, I will extrapolate the mega-gargant krew rules to all gargants.

Mega-gargant krew - 4 riggers
Great gargant - 3 riggers
slasha gargant - 2 riggers
mekboy gargant - 1 rigger

Roll 1d6 per rigger in each end phase. A roll of 6 puts out one fire OR repair (not both) one damaged system (not destroyed).

On a roll of 1 remove one rigger counter (they are killed trying to put out the fire or while repairing).

Now if we use this system, I'd change the "put out fires" selection in the damage tables to: "each successful rigger roll puts out +1 additional fire". Thus a successful rigger roll puts out TWO fires.

OR

"riggers gain +1 to their put out fire rolls" Meaning fires are now put out on a 5+.

Thoughts?

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Dwarf Supreme Alternate Damage tables
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:07 pm 
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primarch wrote:
Gargants don't have repair systems, except for the mega-gargant (and honors). Unless you are propoing to add "riggers" to all gargants. Not a bad idea, I have though of that myself in the past.

Without getting too complicated, I will extrapolate the mega-gargant krew rules to all gargants.

Mega-gargant krew - 4 riggers
Great gargant - 3 riggers
slasha gargant - 2 riggers
mekboy gargant - 1 rigger

Roll 1d6 per rigger in each end phase. A roll of 6 puts out one fire OR repair (not both) one damaged system (not destroyed).

On a roll of 1 remove one rigger counter (they are killed trying to put out the fire or while repairing).

Now if we use this system, I'd change the "put out fires" selection in the damage tables to: "each successful rigger roll puts out +1 additional fire". Thus a successful rigger roll puts out TWO fires.

OR

"riggers gain +1 to their put out fire rolls" Meaning fires are now put out on a 5+.

Thoughts?

Primarch


Yes, I like this! I feel this brings a bit nire clarity to the fire situation. As well as a rigger repair roll, should there perhaps be a roll on the fire chart every end phase? I'm thinking also that one fire should be added every turn. Fire spreads after all...

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 Post subject: Re: Dwarf Supreme Alternate Damage tables
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:11 pm 
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The Bissler wrote:
primarch wrote:
Gargants don't have repair systems, except for the mega-gargant (and honors). Unless you are propoing to add "riggers" to all gargants. Not a bad idea, I have though of that myself in the past.

Without getting too complicated, I will extrapolate the mega-gargant krew rules to all gargants.

Mega-gargant krew - 4 riggers
Great gargant - 3 riggers
slasha gargant - 2 riggers
mekboy gargant - 1 rigger

Roll 1d6 per rigger in each end phase. A roll of 6 puts out one fire OR repair (not both) one damaged system (not destroyed).

On a roll of 1 remove one rigger counter (they are killed trying to put out the fire or while repairing).

Now if we use this system, I'd change the "put out fires" selection in the damage tables to: "each successful rigger roll puts out +1 additional fire". Thus a successful rigger roll puts out TWO fires.

OR

"riggers gain +1 to their put out fire rolls" Meaning fires are now put out on a 5+.

Thoughts?

Primarch


Yes, I like this! I feel this brings a bit nire clarity to the fire situation. As well as a rigger repair roll, should there perhaps be a roll on the fire chart every end phase? I'm thinking also that one fire should be added every turn. Fire spreads after all...


Hi!

I like this. :)

Gargant Fire rules

Every end phase the gargant has at least one fire an additional fire token is added then a roll on the fire table follows.

Rolls for putting out fires by riggers go LAST.

This means fires are always a dangers and once they start they are very hard to put out entirely.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Dwarf Supreme Alternate Damage tables
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:18 pm 
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Like it. But is DS ok with this now we've hijacked his rules? :eh

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 Post subject: Re: Dwarf Supreme Alternate Damage tables
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:28 pm 
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The Bissler wrote:
Like it. But is DS ok with this now we've hijacked his rules? :eh


Hi!

He'll chime in soon.

He's one of the cool old guard, he knows we tinker and modify things. ;)

He may even come up with an even better idea. ;D

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Dwarf Supreme Alternate Damage tables
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:25 pm 
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The Bissler wrote:
This may feel like I'm attacking your tables DS, but to reiterate, we did enjoy using them! These are just a few points which I thought worth raising, I hope you aren't feeling despondent about this as a result. Once again, I did appreciate all of your efforts with this project!

No worries, it doesn't feel like an attack. The tables aren't carved in stone. I know they probably need tinkering. To address your concern about leg damage, I modified the table to this:

Legs: roll 2D6

2-3: The leg is slightly damaged, reducing the Titan’s movement by 1/3.
4-5: The leg is moderately damaged, forcing the Titan to walk with a limp. The Titan’s
movement rate is halved.
6: The leg is heavily damaged, as above, but also may not enter difficult terrain and
may make only one 45 degree turn.
7: The leg has suffered extensive damage and it is possible that it will give way if the
Titan attempts to move. Roll a D6 in the ensuing repair phase, subtracting 2 from
the roll if the Titan has charge orders, or 1 from the roll if it has advance orders.
On a roll of 0 or less, the leg snaps and the Titan crashes to the ground. Determine
randomly which direction the Titan falls. Any vehicles or stands fallen on are
destroyed.
8-9: The leg is crippled and may not be repaired. It may not move or turn for the rest of
the game.
10-12: The leg is blown apart and the Titan immediately crashes to the ground. Determine
randomly which way the Titan falls. Any vehicles or stands landed on are
destroyed.

This should apply for both Eldar and Imperial titans, because they are the same table.

I'm not sure I like the idea of adding rigger rules for Gargants smaller than the Mege-Gargant. I added repair capabilities for weapons only and I don't think everything should be repairable in mid-battle, like their Imperial and Eldar counterparts.

I'll take a look at the fire tables. My initial thought about them was they they're fine as is, but perhaps they do need re-examining. I agree that any fires that are put out automatically end another one next turn.

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 Post subject: Re: Dwarf Supreme Alternate Damage tables
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:32 pm 
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Dwarf Supreme wrote:
The Bissler wrote:
This may feel like I'm attacking your tables DS, but to reiterate, we did enjoy using them! These are just a few points which I thought worth raising, I hope you aren't feeling despondent about this as a result. Once again, I did appreciate all of your efforts with this project!

No worries, it doesn't feel like an attack. The tables aren't carved in stone. I know they probably need tinkering. To address your concern about leg damage, I modified the table to this:

Legs: roll 2D6

2-3: The leg is slightly damaged, reducing the Titan’s movement by 1/3.
4-5: The leg is moderately damaged, forcing the Titan to walk with a limp. The Titan’s
movement rate is halved.
6: The leg is heavily damaged, as above, but also may not enter difficult terrain and
may make only one 45 degree turn.
7: The leg has suffered extensive damage and it is possible that it will give way if the
Titan attempts to move. Roll a D6 in the ensuing repair phase, subtracting 2 from
the roll if the Titan has charge orders, or 1 from the roll if it has advance orders.
On a roll of 0 or less, the leg snaps and the Titan crashes to the ground. Determine
randomly which direction the Titan falls. Any vehicles or stands fallen on are
destroyed.
8-9: The leg is crippled and may not be repaired. It may not move or turn for the rest of
the game.
10-12: The leg is blown apart and the Titan immediately crashes to the ground. Determine
randomly which way the Titan falls. Any vehicles or stands landed on are
destroyed.

This should apply for both Eldar and Imperial titans, because they are the same table.

I'm not sure I like the idea of adding rigger rules for Gargants smaller than the Mege-Gargant. I added repair capabilities for weapons only and I don't think everything should be repairable in mid-battle, like their Imperial and Eldar counterparts.

I'll take a look at the fire tables. My initial thought about them was they they're fine as is, but perhaps they do need re-examining. I agree that any fires that are put out automatically end another one next turn.


Hi!

I would add the riggers as an extra "shell" to be used or discarded according to taste.

Your basic tables should account for some fire control. I think Bissler's basic idea of 1d3 fires put out looks good if you roll enough and add +1 fires per turn if any fire still rages.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Dwarf Supreme Alternate Damage tables
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:51 am 
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I haven't been following this too closely because it is rather more rules fiddly than I feel I can meaningfully comment on at the moment and also because my army of choice doesn't have any titans.

Which brings up the question, will we be getting these kind of tables for Praetorians as well?

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 Post subject: Re: Dwarf Supreme Alternate Damage tables
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:58 am 
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ForgottenLore wrote:
I haven't been following this too closely because it is rather more rules fiddly than I feel I can meaningfully comment on at the moment and also because my army of choice doesn't have any titans.

Which brings up the question, will we be getting these kind of tables for Praetorians as well?


Hi!

Good point. What do you think DS, shall I give it a go?

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Dwarf Supreme Alternate Damage tables
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:30 am 
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I'll play devil's advocate without Keanu Reeves or Al "Hoo-ha" Pacino;

Reasons for changing Praetorian damage charts:

    1) Unites all damage rolls as 2D6 rolls
    2) Makes Praetorian damage more nuanced

Reasons against:

    1) Titan rules revisions were intended to make Titans "king"; what we believed were overpowered Praetorians (for the points) theorically become harder to kill and therefore even more overpowered - although maybe not if the same statistical chances for kills are extropolated to new 2D6 tables.
    2) More nuanced = more complicated = slowing down of play

My backside hurts from the splinters from sitting on the fence...

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 Post subject: Re: Dwarf Supreme Alternate Damage tables
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:59 pm 
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The Bissler wrote:
I'll play devil's advocate without Keanu Reeves or Al "Hoo-ha" Pacino;

Reasons for changing Praetorian damage charts:

    1) Unites all damage rolls as 2D6 rolls
    2) Makes Praetorian damage more nuanced

Reasons against:

    1) Titan rules revisions were intended to make Titans "king"; what we believed were overpowered Praetorians (for the points) theorically become harder to kill and therefore even more overpowered - although maybe not if the same statistical chances for kills are extropolated to new 2D6 tables.
    2) More nuanced = more complicated = slowing down of play

My backside hurts from the splinters from sitting on the fence...


Hi!

Those are good points.

I find myself more swayed by the "against", since I like titans to be the "king" of the battlefield.

Also, it would mean less work. ;)

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Dwarf Supreme Alternate Damage tables
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 5:19 pm 
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primarch wrote:
I find myself more swayed by the "against", since I like titans to be the "king" of the battlefield.

Also, it would mean less work. ;)

Primarch


I agree with both of your points, although being a dawdling flaneur, for me the second one is the winner! :D

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