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Amending Rules for the Avatar

 Post subject: Amending Rules for the Avatar
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:30 pm 
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With reference to the above discussion. Are the Avatar's rules as written in gold too vague. Do they need to be made more precise about how he moves? At the moment they simply state:

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The Avatar is not actually under the player’s control and is not given orders. He will automatically move 15 cm towards the nearest enemy in the Compulsory Movement phase. If this distance is enough to reach the enemy then he will stop and engage it in Close Combat. If the Avatar is not engaged in Close Combat then he will fire his spear at the nearest enemy model in the First Fire phase


This leaves it open to debate that he could be lured into minefields, vortex templates, impassable terrain, etc. Yet, the Avatar is not stupid, so wouldn't commit suicide in this manner. Do we need to add caveats from the old FAQ (see the link) to make this more evident?

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 Post subject: Re: Amending Rules for the Avatar
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:00 am 
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I would be in favor of changing the above to: (or something similar)

The Avatar is not actually under the player’s control and is not given orders. He will automatically move 15 cm towards the nearest visible enemy in the Compulsory Movement phase, but will move around impassible or dangerous terrain using the shortest route possible. If this distance is enough to reach the enemy then he will stop and engage it in Close Combat. If the Avatar is not engaged in Close Combat then he will fire his spear at the nearest enemy model in the First Fire phase.

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 Post subject: Re: Amending Rules for the Avatar
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:22 am 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
I would be in favor of changing the above to: (or something similar)

The Avatar is not actually under the player’s control and is not given orders. He will automatically move 15 cm towards the nearest visible enemy in the Compulsory Movement phase, but will move around impassible or dangerous terrain using the shortest route possible. If this distance is enough to reach the enemy then he will stop and engage it in Close Combat. If the Avatar is not engaged in Close Combat then he will fire his spear at the nearest enemy model in the First Fire phase.


Hi!

This is pretty straightforward.

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 Post subject: Re: Amending Rules for the Avatar
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:29 am 
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That seems good to me, assuming things like vortex templates would be included in the definition of impassable terrain. To my mind, they would, but I just want to ensure that we're covering all bases here.

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 Post subject: Re: Amending Rules for the Avatar
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:49 pm 
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Irisado wrote:
That seems good to me, assuming things like vortex templates would be included in the definition of impassable terrain. To my mind, they would, but I just want to ensure that we're covering all bases here.


Hi!

Some caveat could be included. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Amending Rules for the Avatar
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 9:21 pm 
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That's great guys. Thanks for the clarification! Would it be possible to add a line specifically saying saying that The Avatar can enter buildings? My avatar model looks way too big for that and even though it's not as big as a knight, I would never have guessed that it could enter a building. In 28mm scale (which I don't play) I could see an Avatar entering a building. At that scale he's only about twice the size of a man. But in epic the Avatar looks at least two or three stories high. And that's the little one with the sword. (The original Epic Avatar with the spear was more Knight sized if I'm not mistaken. And there's no way I'd suspect that that guy could enter a building!) The closest equivalent to my eye size wise is something like a War Walker which can attack into a building but not enter.
In the game I just had, if I had played this rule the Eldar probably would have won the battle instead of it ending in an equal point draw. The building the Avatar didn't enter ended the game with one Assault Marine stand left on an objective. When the Avatar turned up I had some Exarchs already engaged with all the marines against the edge of the building, so I ruled that the Avatar couldn't get an angle against any marine stands so he couldn't attack into the building. Had I played the rule properly, he might have been able to run around (Though I don't remember the exact positioning) and enter the building behind them to obliterate that last stand without it even having it's +2 attack bonus. Instead the avatar ran around the building and ended up destroying three Land Raiders by the end of the game and drew a ton of ineffectual fire without dying. But it didn't score those crucial 5 victory points.

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 Post subject: Re: Amending Rules for the Avatar
PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 2:40 am 
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Hi!

The epic avatar has always been incorrectly scaled. I think they wanted it to compare to the daemons in size, but daemon due to their nature can be of any size. The avatar was more "infantry size" by the fluff, but got a large mini like the daemons.

I guess there are some conflicts between models and background. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Amending Rules for the Avatar
PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:49 am 
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Aye, I've got the old style avatar and have always assumed it was classed as a knight like greater demons.

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 Post subject: Re: Amending Rules for the Avatar
PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 12:30 pm 
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They've changed size over the years, but I think they are meant to be able to stand toe to toe with the forgeworld exhalted greater daemons http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/20 ... Trader.JPG


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 Post subject: Re: Amending Rules for the Avatar
PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 8:47 pm 
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Yeah, the scale of various models in Epic has always been a bit variable. For example, if the Infantry were properly scaled to the buildings & vehicles, they would have to be at least half their current size or possibly even smaller.

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 Post subject: Re: Amending Rules for the Avatar
PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 12:28 am 
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Wow! That's a big variance in size. So what you're saying is: extrapolating which size it's supposed to be in Netepic is basically impossible. Does that mean you guys agree that the rule book needs a line somewhere to say the Avatar can enter buildings then?


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 Post subject: Re: Amending Rules for the Avatar
PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 1:24 am 
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I do!

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 Post subject: Re: Amending Rules for the Avatar
PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 4:51 am 
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Then perhaps we should adjust what I posted above as follows:

"The Avatar is not actually under the player’s control and is not given orders. He will automatically move 15 cm towards the nearest visible enemy in the Compulsory Movement phase, but will move around impassible or dangerous terrain (including minefields, vortex templates, etc) using the shortest route possible. If this distance is enough to reach the enemy then he will stop and engage it in Close Combat. If the Avatar is not engaged in Close Combat then he will fire his spear at the nearest enemy model in the First Fire phase. The Avatar counts as a Knight for pinning purposes, but interacts with terrain as if it were Infantry. For example, it may enter buildings to chase down other Infantry in them, but only if the Avatar can see the target before entering the structure. Once inside a structure, the Avatar is considered to be able to "see" all other models in that same building or fortification."

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 Post subject: Re: Amending Rules for the Avatar
PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:17 am 
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I think this is good Magnus. However, if, as you are suggesting. the Avatar cannot see a model in a building that would mean he would have to move 15cm towards the next nearest unit. Presumably the Avatar would behave the same way with troops concealed in woods? Personally I'd drop the bit about not pursuing units he cannot see. I don't know if that would be compatible with the fluff but I just feel that it keeps things simple.

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 Post subject: Re: Amending Rules for the Avatar
PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 11:53 am 
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As Irisado pointed out above, the GW FAQ clearly stated that the intention for the Avatar was that it would pursue the nearest VISIBLE target. Thus spelling out the restriction in more detail. It could easily be extended to woods, in that the Avatar would only enter the wood if there was a visible foe at the edge, but once in the wood (or other similar terrain) it should be able to see all foes within that terrain piece. This effect could be limited to a 15cm radius if people think it is too powerful otherwise.

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