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Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha

 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 1:05 pm 
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Seven days ago I realised that I had finally had enough, and that all my chatter about the current sad state of EA was no substitute for me actually doing something useful.  Thus here is the result of several frenzied evenings of work. Though initially done primarily for my own playgroup, others have also welcomed the idea. Get it while it's hot...  

MAIN RULES AND TWELVE ARMIES FULLY REVISED!

7.12.14 FINAL VERSION RELEASED, and thread closed. See this thread for future development:
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/cgi-bin....218;r=1

Any help in further rapid development appreciated (see page 3). Thank you to the many people who have contributed so far. Note the aim is 'official as is possible' given the current state of affairs.  The intention is not to start introducing a host of new changes, but just finalising these sort of issues that have been around for years (literally), and compiling everything into this single PDF.  If in doubt I will just go with whatever Neal Hunt's last opinion was on a matter, seeing as he seems to be the most active ERC member. Deadline for a version 1.0 is November.

I hope that the ERC committee and SG actually get around to doing something more substantial before I die, but I'm not holding my breath. If the worst comes to the worst I may release the masters of this as the basis for a NetEpicA project if that is desired. That won't happen yet though so please don't ask, as I don't want to risk dozens of different houserule EA variants floating around the net confusing people. No offense to anyone intended. If the ERC continues to produce nothing, and this handbook continues to gain international acceptance and useage, then this may be an alternative we can push SG to host (free IP for them) to improve the current unfortunate situation.

7.7.19 - Updated! As far as I am aware all rule and army list (main rulebook and Swordwind) revisions are now complete except hit allocation (1.9.6) and fearless (2.1.3).  
7.7.24 - Updated again! Now including Chaos lists and the master FAQ by Lord Inquisitor from the Specialist Games site. Note the FAQ will need going over with a fine tooth comb to make sure it is up to date with the revisions before version 1.0 of the handbook is out.
7.7.29 - Updated! Hit allocation and fearless rules revised with recent versions. Some unit data mistakes fixed. Thus this handbook now contains all main rules and 9 core lists fully revised.
7.8.01 - Updated! Some corrections to the Chaos Black Legion List.  Version number now reads Alpha Draft 1.1
7.8.03 - Updated! Some corrections to Lost and Damned list.  Version number now reads Alpha Draft 1.2
7.8.22 - Updated! Some corrections. Major overhaul of core rules in accordance with information from Neal Hunt. Updates to some armies based on recent discussion and polls. Version number now reads Alpha Draft 1.3
7.8.25 - Updated! Some more corrections, and Speed Freeks are now included. Version number now reads Alpha Draft 1.4
7.8.31 - Some minor typos in 1.4 corrected.
7.9.15 - More typos corrected and some clarifications based on historical discussion at SG.  Flame template rules added to core rules. Morg to start work on German translation. Version number now reads Alpha Draft 1.5.
7.10.07 - Updated with Neal's change documents, Version number now reads Alpha Draft 2.0.
7.11.25 - Updated with Tau 4.4.2 and Whitescars, and typo corrections. Version number now reads Beta Draft 1.0, which should be finalised into a Handbook version 1.0 after a week or two of final editorial checks.
7.12.14 - Finalised! See above for link to the new thread.

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 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:02 pm 
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(Hena @ Jul. 16 2007,12:33)
QUOTE
That's a lot of work.

Also would you perhaps use red/yellow colour for the texts that have been changed from the main book.

Sigh... I knew someone was going to ask that...  :(

Ok will highlight changes in red (edit - blue as easier to read). Wait a couple of tics and I will have a new version up. Will check what else you have mentioned.

Yes it is a fair amount of work, but hardly seems fair to keep complaining about the state of affairs without fronting up to the problems in some way.

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 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:08 pm 
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Nice work.  It does seem like a step in the correct direction.  A place to consolidate the various 'offical' or near offical list.  It can almost serve a similar function the the 40k supplement: Wargear.

Why is the Warmachine section of the rulebook reprinted? Have significant changes been made here?  It seems like you reprinted the section almost straight from the rulebook.

I would not make the Marauder change as of yet or including anything else that has just begun playtesting to the Epic Armageddon Handbook.  
But it does give me the idea (now whether I do it or not is entirely different) to have a monthly or quarterly playtesters guide/newsletter.  In it could be number of games played using such and such playtest list given in the previous newsletter.  It would have single unit play test like the Marauder - "Playtesters over the course of the next 3 months play games using the 3 BP 250 pt rules, the following 3 months will be the DC 2 6+ BP 3 rules."  or for a list it might be - "Those with sufficient Imperial Guard armies playtest the Minveran Armored Regiment against the following list (list of mostly official armies)"  It could also include how to record and report on your play testing.

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 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:10 pm 
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Good idea.


Now prepare to get sued for a breach of IP ;)

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 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:53 pm 
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(orangesm @ Jul. 16 2007,13:08)
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Why is the Warmachine section of the rulebook reprinted? Have significant changes been made here?  It seems like you reprinted the section almost straight from the rulebook.

It contains everything needed - that includes the warmachine section. The fact that the core rules keep a similar look is deliberate. No changes are intended there (edit - actually TK weapons change in WM section) or in many other sections as far as I am aware - yet.  However as stated the idea is to have everything you need to play 10 core armies in one document, rather than having to download a hundred different things, work out erratas and changes etc (which is really offputting for new players).

Re Marauder and some other changes (eg the demolishers), as I said I have chosen something over nothing in cases where there is a clear consensus that something needs to happen and where various 'good enough' ideas have been floated for some time. In such cases I have tended to go with minimalist changes over extensive changes - I want a complete revised set of rules soon not in 10 years. 250 points was one of the earliest proposals for Marauders, and its been tested for a while now (years for some people). 3 BP is a slight boost to that proposal after that playtesting experience. Ultimately if this solution changes so be it - I don't care either way, but I'd rather have some solution in there rather than nothing.

Also note that I have just stuck in all changes that seem to have been supported, even ones I really dislike such as that beardy Aspect Troupe for Biel Tan...   (I have a Biel Tan army but I don't want that sort of help).

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 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:04 pm 
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As Hena says, you failed to apply the full upgunning of the Baneblade (3x Twin Heavy Bolters replaces the Heavy Bolter).


More comments to come. :)

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 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:11 pm 
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Did you incorporate the master faq?

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 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:16 pm 
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(Morg @ Jul. 16 2007,13:10)
QUOTE
Good idea.


Now prepare to get sued for a breach of IP ;)

Lol, yeah well frankly they can kiss my **** after everything they have done to EA so far...  :;):

But in any case given how they view Netepic, and given that SG has the vigour of a crippled cockroach at the moment, I can't see anything happening in a hurry. Besides which its just free IP and promotion for them, though you are quite correct that commonsense on their part shouldn't be expected...


P.S. new version with changes highlighted up now. Apologies for any mistakes,  there likely are more than a few given that I've done 70 pages of text in just a few days (lots of copying, pasting, and reformatting). Point them out and I will change them.

Beta Draft will add the last 4 lists plus all core revisions, for final tweaking. 1.0 will be ASAP after that. Not yet decided on whether or not the master FAQ should be included in Beta, my gut feeling is probably yes.

Anyway its 3am and I'm off to bed... thanks to all for comments so far.

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 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:18 pm 
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Thanks, Marconz, even if it's not finished it's nice to have everything in one place and in a format that will still be legible when printed.

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 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:30 pm 
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(Markconz @ Jul. 16 2007,16:16)
QUOTE
Beta Draft will add the last 4 lists plus all core revisions, for final tweaking.

Thanks for all the effort Markconz, but what's the point of putting experimental lists that may be subject to radical change in the document? ?

Why not just collate all the "official" lists and leave the experimentals for now?  As acting Tyranid Champion, I'd definitely say the Bug list is not ready for even a "semi-official" publication.


Drop Ulthwe, Tau, and Tyranids, and put in Speed Freeks and (corrected!) White Scars, is what I'd suggest.

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 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:30 pm 
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Impressive. I knew one day someone has to do it.




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 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:33 pm 
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Page 26, Special Rule - Rounding, should be Special Rule - Re-Rolls, I believe.

Page 43, Warlord Titan, Volocano Cannon should be "Volcano Cannon"... the oldest error in the book!  *laugh*

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 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:24 am 
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(Chroma @ Jul. 16 2007,15:30)
QUOTE

(Markconz @ Jul. 16 2007,16:16)
QUOTE
Beta Draft will add the last 4 lists plus all core revisions, for final tweaking.

Thanks for all the effort Markconz, but what's the point of putting experimental lists that may be subject to radical change in the document?  

Why not just collate all the "official" lists and leave the experimentals for now?  As acting Tyranid Champion, I'd definitely say the Bug list is not ready for even a "semi-official" publication.


Drop Ulthwe, Tau, and Tyranids, and put in Speed Freeks and (corrected!) White Scars, is what I'd suggest.


Good questions and valid points that I did consider.  The answer is: what is out there, what is being played, what has been tested, what has been guided by an involved army champ?

Ulthwe decision was tough and they are still on the verge of being thrown out. However, they are in there because they had an active involved AC and lots of battle reports were and are posted (perhaps even more than the core eldar list). They seem to be a very high use army unlike all the other craftworlds. I don't know why so many people use ulthwe but I suspect the 'simple' black paint job option has something to do with it...  Sticking them in also  provides kind of a nice miltia versus elite list pairing for guard (siege/steel), eldar (ulthwe/biel tan), chaos (L&D/BL), and maybe even orks (ferals/ghazkhul). Besides which they are in and done now - if there are strong objections they will be removed though because I can see where you are coming from. I'll direct the 3 ulthwe players in my own group to you with their 'questions' on that decision :;):

White scars... are official but forgettable. Sorry but I've seen one battle report the whole time they have existed. I thought it was telling that they were only thought of after everything else to be added to the army list database (the thread by Blacklegion).   Speed Freaks are better than White scars but I still do not see them much at all, and by all accounts they are heavily broken.  Each has just one scrappy PDF and nothing else, and similar lists can be created from the core lists. Nonetheless if there is enough pressure I will put one or both these lists in rather than leaving them out.

As to tau and tyranids not being finished, I'd start by saying that a list is never really finished, but they do reach a stage where it is good enough to play fun games with and both of these lists are at that stage now IMO.  Ultimately for tau and tyranids my philosphy is 'something is better than nothing', when that something is already pretty playable and gives a good game.  Not everyone wants to hunt around for lists under development. If they do it is one line to state 'use handbook 1.0 but tau list x.x and tyranid list x.x'.  Nothing is really lost by including them, but something is gained for the casual less hardcore player. Besides which I have faith in both you and Cybershadow that you will  get something reasonable and 'good enough' for inclusion sometime soon :;): (and you have some time yet so don't panic). After this many years deadlines have to drive development not the other way around.  When the time comes and it is judged that those lists are better as a supplement rather than included then perhaps I will go that route, but I would really prefer not to.

Essentially I want inclusion of all races that you can actually buy miniatures for and that are stalwarts of the epic gaming scene.  Tyranids also because I still have slight hopes that SG will release the infantry sprue as they did for chaos. If they do that tyranids are feasible again given that the inherent variation implicit in a tyranid army makes converting from tyranid 40k bits a possibility.

So apologies for that somewhat longwinded explanation, but that is the reasoning behind it, and as stated I am open change if there is will for that.

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