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Elysian Drop Troop

 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 12:20 am 
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Ok, I've been thinking about this list for awhile, but I also know what happens sometimes when you do something all by yourself.

So, I'd like to get peoples' initial thoughts on this list.

Questions I have:

1. Stick to Elysian Drop Troops or go with the GW Harkoni (or what ever they're called in the IG codex)



2. Suggestions for the Support Sentinels. In IA3, they come with a missile pod or a big Melta. So should that equate to 1 BP for the former and some sort of MW for the latter?



3. Rather than add extra "tarantula" units for support, I just assumed that those could either be modeled using the existing support unit stats or just go with other infantry units. Does that seem Ok?



4. The all "Teleport" army. I've included that as a possibilty. Over the top? If so, why?

5. Obviously, this is a bit of a finesse list in that you have high mobility and the potential for lots of airborne firepower, but it's also very fragile (or at least I think it is). It's not a jack of all trades, more of a specialized list. Against heavily mechanized forces, it should have a tough time. Same for really good CC lists. Thoughts or concerns about that?



1. I fiddled a little bit with the unit sizes. Don't know if that is opening a can or worms or not. I could go back to the original sizes of the infantry units pretty easily.

2. Updated the cost of the Regimental HQ (01/05/06).

3. Added values for the Drop and Support Sentinels, will set cost to 125 for either version per Neal's recommendation. Weapons loadout matches the Sentinel versions as published in IA3 (01/05/06).

4. Changed text on teleporting and transports (01/05/06).

5. Updated cost of infantry drop troops to 225 (01/05/06).

6. Updated text on support formations to only apply to Elysian troops, not Stormtroopers (02/20/06).

7. I have removed the Heavy Bolter from the Drop Sentinel, but left the points the same (02/21/06).



Elysian Drop Troops Army List v1.2-022106


Elysian Drop Troop armies have a strategy rating of 2. Elysian Drop Troop formations and Imperial Navy aircraft formations have an initiative rating of +2.


Elysian Drop Troop Companies

Regimental HQ (only one allowed), 325 points
? 1 x Supreme Command unit
? 8 x Elysian Drop infantry units
? (May purchase 5 x Valkyrie transport vehicles for + 200 points)

Elysian Drop Infantry Company, 225 points
? 1 x Elysian Command unit
? 8 x Elysian Drop infantry units
? (May purchase 5 x Valkyrie transport vehicles for + 200 points)

Storm Trooper Company, 350 points
? 8 x Storm Trooper units
? 4 x Valkyrie transport vehicles

Elysian Drop Troop Support Formations
(Two may be taken per Elysian Drop Troop Company, Stormtroopers cannot receive upgrades)

Vulture Squadron, 4 x Vultures, 300 points
Drop Sentinel Squadron, 4 x Sentinels, 125 points
Support Sentinel Squadrons, 4 x Support Sentinels, 125 points

Note: The Sentinel units may have Valkyrie transport vehicles. Each Valkyrie costs 40 points. You may take enough Valkyries to transport the whole formation if any are taken, but you may not take more than one Valkyrie per two units in the formation.

If Valkyrie transport is not purchased for the Sentinel squadrons, then these units may teleport.




May choose one of the following:
Orbital Support, 1 x Lunar class cruiser, 150 points
Orbital Support, 1 x Emperor class battleship, 300 points

Elysian Drop Troop Company Upgrades
(Three may be taken per Elysian Drop Troop Company, Stormtroopers cannot receive upgrades)

Fire Support Platoon, 4 x Fire Support units, 100 points
Infantry Platoon, 6 x Infantry units, 150 points
Snipers, 2 x Sniper units, 50 points

Note: These units may purchase Valkyrie transport vehicles. Each Valkyrie costs 40 points. You may take enough Valkyries to transport the whole formation if any are taken, but you may not take more than one Valkyrie per two units in the formation.

If Valkyrie transport is not purchased, then these units may teleport.



Imperial Navy Aircraft

Fighters, 2 x Thunderbolt fighters, 150 points
Bombers, 2 x Marauder bombers, 300 points

Army List Notes:

i. Each Elysian infantry, Sentinel, and Support units may choose to deploy from a high altitude Valkyrie drop and rely on their grav-chutes to safely reach the ground. To simulate this effect, each unit may use the Teleport special rule (2.1.17).

ii. The Elysian Drop Troops use the special Commissar rule (6.4.1) available to the Steel Legion Army List.

iii. Drop Sentinels are armed with a Multi-melta. The Multi-melta has a range of 15 cm and is a MW5+. Except for the different weapon, Drop Sentinels are no different than Steel Legion Sentinels.

iv. Support Sentinels are armed with a Missile Launcher or Multiple Rocket pod. These weapons have a range of 45 cm and are AP5+/AT6+ weapons. Except for the different weapons, Drop Sentinels are no different than Steel Legion Sentinels.





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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 3:20 pm 
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Ok, looks like everyone was completely "underwhelmed" with this effort.

I think I'll playtest the list as is and post a batrep. Perhaps after someone sees it in action, they might be more inclined to offer an opinion.

Thanx for viewing!

:8):

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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 3:43 pm 
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Hi Honda,
late in the day, but this list seems to have a bit in common with my pet Dark Eldar, another very light list.
So:
1 - I'd personally prefer Elysian.
2 - I like the Sentinels' arms as described here.
3 - use both options - add the normal heavies, but leave the Tarantula as an option.
4 - If by teleport you mean equivalent to parachute, I agree. Another fluff variant for this same list (based on the IG codex) is a tunneller-transported army.
5 - same as for the DE - or the Catachans - use it for special scenarios, or as allies, or for a bit of sporting fun - or for modelling ambitions!
6 - play test!


As for the troops, they feel ok. I'd personally remove the snipers, as these would need time to get a good location, which droppies wouldn't have, at least at first contact.
I'd be sorely tempted to add IG with jump packs, from the old model range. :;):
Not to mention a nice juicy lander - this could drop troops, Sentinels, and, dare I say it - Chimerae and Hellhounds?

How about slightly cheaper air support for these guys, to reflect their necessary excellent coordination with whoever is dropping them and their air fleet?
cheers, and sorry for the delay,
John
:D

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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 3:50 pm 
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I would like Epic Elysian models ... ??? :;):

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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 5:15 pm 
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Checkout Version 1.4 at the NEW EpiCentre, in the Download Section.

Cheers!
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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:48 pm 
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1.  I'm not familiar enough with the background to say.

2. Ditto.

3. I think just calling them fire support is fine.

4. The teleport ability is fuzzy.  More below.

5. I'm not sure that it would be that bad against armor, but it would have to be played in a certain way to work.

6. Formation sizes are fine unless playtest says otherwise.

===

HQ - I assume that for 500 points the Valkyries are supposed to be included?

Support sentinels better have really good firepower to support a 50% point increase, like just about double.

You should specify that drop units and the commanders can teleport, since you used their specific unit title.  Do you intend it that attaching non-Drop units stops the teleport, i.e. if you attach a Fire Support platoon, Fire Support units can't teleport, so the formation is land-bound?

Also, do they have to buy the Valkyries to get the teleport or do they have it automatically?  If buying, it's rather expensive.  If not, it seems like it would be too cheap at 180 points for a Turn 3 objective grab.

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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2006 7:50 pm 
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HQ - I assume that for 500 points the Valkyries are supposed to be included?


Oops! That is a typo. The 500 should include the transport.


Support sentinels better have really good firepower to support a 50% point increase, like just about double.


Yeah, I realize that 150 points is overdoing it, but it's more of a spacer. I will put down some concrete values and then people can comment on whether or not it is over-priced.


You should specify that drop units and the commanders can teleport, since you used their specific unit title. ?Do you intend it that attaching non-Drop units stops the teleport, i.e. if you attach a Fire Support platoon, Fire Support units can't teleport, so the formation is land-bound?


I will update and state clearly what happens when "land-bound" units are included. Good catch.


Also, do they have to buy the Valkyries to get the teleport or do they have it automatically?


They do not have to buy Valkryies to get teleport. That is supposed to be part of the unit's capabilities.


?If buying, it's rather expensive. ?If not, it seems like it would be too cheap at 180 points for a Turn 3 objective grab.


Therein lies the problem.

First off, let me state that I am not in anyway married to the current costs for units. I just took a first cut at what they "might" be, assuming that other sage minds would point out where they might be long or short.

So with that being said...

To come up with the costs, I just took the regular infantry company sans vehicles, got the per unit cost and went from there.

Now, I didn't just assign things willy nilly, I also tried to look at what you get for your points.

A Drop Troop company gives you:

a) 1 x commander + 8 x infantry and the potential for a commissar

b) Upon teleporting, some proportion of troops will most likely be suppressed from receiving blast markers. This will cause a degradation in their activation rolls.

c) Upside is that it would be quite easy for them to contest objectives, forcing the opponent to go dig them out. Dug in infantry aren't necessarily the easiest thing, however, the Drop company doesn't really come with a lot of gadgets to support them, so they don't appear to be unnecessarily tough. I'll leave that for others (and playtesting) to decide.

d) I don't know if you've had a chance to put points to paper, but at 2700 pts, I was most unimpressed by what you bring to to the table. Yes, lots of goodies are available, but none of them are that cheap.

Some of the options I looked at were:

i. All Storm Trooper army: at 350 points, in 2700 pts, you get about 6 of those + the Regimental command. No Vultures, no aircraft, no AT, no AA, no Titan killing weapons. High mobility, no doubt, but low activations, and not a lot of hard units. Seems fragile. Not that that is wrong, but something to think about.

ii. Lots of teleport troops, some Vultures, Valkryie command: More troops this time, some fire power for dealing with armored formations, definitely not as mobile, with the above limitations.

So, given that, "yes", they become a cheap Turn 3 objective grab, however, if not that, then what else do they have?

I'm not disappointed with the options too much, though for some reason, I was thinking you could buy more stuff, I don't know that they need to be a whole lot more expensive either, simply because of their limitations.

Anyway, that's why I posted this for feedback, because on my own, I was struggling a bit with making the list at least appear somewhat balanced.

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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:46 pm 
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My first run at an army core would probably be something like:

HQ
3x Co + Fire Support
2x Vultures
2x Tbolts

That gives you a horde of infantry on the ground, substantial AT, AA, tons of AP/FF, and enough fast units to react.  61 ground units, all infantry or skimmer for use of cover, 8 activations (6 ground/2 air).  And you still have ~450 points left over to do whatever.

I've thought for some time that the Fire Support Platoon was a darn good value in the IG list.  With a lower Co cost, you can pack more of them into an army.  For 280 points, you get 13 stands with 13 45cm shots and a lot of resistance to suppression, able to take advantage of cover and cover saves.  With 3 of them you should probably be able to garrison them in terrain.  Those are going to be pretty tough as a battle line.


None of that is to say I think it's out of line at the moment.  I just think that's substantial for the points.

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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 3:02 pm 
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HQ
3x Co + Fire Support
2x Vultures
2x Tbolts


Interesting list. Something to consider, the Fire Support do not have Teleport, so must be "transported" by Valkryies. So, now your units can garrison, but that's the only way they can get on the board.

So in order to move the whole company, you'd have to buy valkyries for them, which will cut down on something else.

I also am not thinking that the list is over powering, but at the same time, I don't see it being able to accomplish much besides land grabs, which may or may not be fun after a couple of times.

I really appreciate your feedback.

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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 4:41 pm 
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Interesting list. Something to consider, the Fire Support do not have Teleport, so must be "transported" by Valkryies. So, now your units can garrison, but that's the only way they can get on the board.


So?  Isn't that what IG does best? :D

Seriously, that's a pretty basic time-proven kind of setup.  It's a tough anchor with fast units to swing off of it and counter enemy movement.  It's basically a firebase (3 companies w/ extra guns) calling in reinforcements and air support.  I don't think anything about that is especially land-grabby.  In fact, if anything, I think it's rather Siege-IG-ish, especially if you are in the right terrain.

With the extra 450 points, you could easily make it faster or more shooty or just plain bigger.  There's a lot of flexibility.


The one complaint I have is that there is absolutely no way I would pay 200 points to teleport a 200 point formation.  It's just not worth it.  With 35cm move on the Valkyries, you can march nearly any place you want in a single turn and pack a lot more punch when you get there.

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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 6:10 pm 
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The Elysian TO&E from IA3 says a Drop Company consists of a Company command section, 4 Platoons (each with Command +8 bases), a Weapons Platoon (Command, 2 mortar bases, 2 Fire Support bases, 2 AT bases), and a flight of 3 Vultures.  Half of the companies in the Regiment (4 of 8) have Valkyrie transports, 25 Valks per company.

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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 4:33 am 
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Interesting list. Something to consider, the Fire Support do not have Teleport, so must be "transported" by Valkryies. So, now your units can garrison, but that's the only way they can get on the board.


So? ?Isn't that what IG does best? ?

Seriously, that's a pretty basic time-proven kind of setup. ?It's a tough anchor with fast units to swing off of it and counter enemy movement.


The whole purpose of this effort is to develop an "airmobile" force that models the Elysian list that is in IA3.

What you just described can be produced by using the existing Steel Legions list. I'm attempting to see if the Elysians can be produced in Epic.


It's basically a firebase (3 companies w/ extra guns) calling in reinforcements and air support. ?I don't think anything about that is especially land-grabby. ?In fact, if anything, I think it's rather Siege-IG-ish, especially if you are in the right terrain.


Which was stated above. The Elysians should operate somewhat like a cross between the 101st Airborne or a Ranger battalion.

So they drop into harms way and take tough targets, but they need support because of the lack of organic assets.


With the extra 450 points, you could easily make it faster or more shooty or just plain bigger. ?There's a lot of flexibility.


Umm...you need to be a little more specific as I'm not following you.


The one complaint I have is that there is absolutely no way I would pay 200 points to teleport a 200 point formation. ?It's just not worth it. ?With 35cm move on the Valkyries, you can march nearly any place you want in a single turn and pack a lot more punch when you get there.


Ok, I think there is a misunderstanding here. You don't pay extra to get "teleporting" infantry. Teleport is part of their basic capabilities. If you pay extra for transport, then you get the Valkyries which allow you to transport the infantry.

Is that clearer?

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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 4:44 am 
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Yes, they would act like the 101 and/or Rangers and would need gunships, CAS and FA from Firebase(s) ...  Their missions would include all forms of Raids behind enemy lines and seize and secure OBJs (bridges, airfields, etc.).  Commanded a Rifle Plt and was a Bn S-3Air, in the 101 (80-83). :;): :D :p

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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:14 pm 
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Ok, I think there is a misunderstanding here. You don't pay extra to get "teleporting" infantry. Teleport is part of their basic capabilities. If you pay extra for transport, then you get the Valkyries which allow you to transport the infantry.

Is that clearer?


I did misunderstand.  In that case, it's back to the other issue.  180 point teleporting formations are likely going to be a problem.  They are extremely opportunistic and flexible.

Individually they aren't a big deal but they each have a Commander.  They can teleport in and do combined assaults.  They can easily provide lots of crossfire opportunities.  They are also dirt cheap as objective grabbers.

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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:53 pm 
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I did misunderstand.  In that case, it's back to the other issue.  180 point teleporting formations are likely going to be a problem.  They are extremely opportunistic and flexible.

Individually they aren't a big deal but they each have a Commander.  They can teleport in and do combined assaults.  They can easily provide lots of crossfire opportunities.  They are also dirt cheap as objective grabbers.


Very good, this is the kind of feedback I'm looking for.

So...what in your estimation is the "correct" price? 225? 250? 275? What about the Support Sentinels? Is that cost too high for what you get or about right?

If we can come up with something that isn't pulled out of a hat (meaning my best guess), then we have a good starting point for testing. Testing provides better feedback and we can then continue the process of refining.

:8):

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