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Using Saim-Hann

 Post subject: Using Saim-Hann
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 1:12 am 
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Last night John and I both tried the S-H list for the first time and it was interesting comparing notes after the game. He played against Tau and I played against Space Marines (both at 1500 pts), so obviously our perspectives are going to be a little different, but I was amazed at how different.

Essentially, he views the S-H list as a "horse archer" (i.e. fast shooty) list and I see it better as a "Cossack" list (i.e. fast assault). So, I thought I would open a thread and see the different ways people are running S-H lists.

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 Post subject: Using Saim-Hann
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 1:18 am 
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I hope John does not mind me posting his response to my email, but here goes:

Lessons learned

Don?t forget when you break, you can move two steps of full distance.  I thought it was 15cm and it cost me my largest formation.

Don?t always attempt to retain the initative.  If you?ve put fire on a unit retaining initiative is good to swing in another unit for cross fire or assault to take it out.

Against a shooty force put your IC?s towards the front, against assault put them towards the back.

You can move and POP UP for the firing.  I had a tendency to get that confused with overwatch.

Tau move as fast as elder, but generally have longer range shooting.  Grab them by the belt buckle and take them out via shooting or assault, or inversely draw them into a cross fire (but watch they don?t suddenly pincer you).

Tau tanks vs. elder tanks equals dead Tau tanks.

Being Sam Hain means never having to ?stoop? to CC.  You decide when to deal with the hordes O? Nids and can avoid some of the real hand to hand units of the marines and Orks (and Biel Tan).

Interesting that in a formation, if a transport blows, the whole formation is stuck to infantry rate (that?s how we played it anyway).  I need to research if this is accurate.  If so, hit fast moving troop transport formations ASAP to slow them down.

Next game I may try a small formation of aspects ? firedragons and scorpions/howling banshees in wave serpents to start exploring that aspect of the army as well.

Falcons are actually weaker than vipers for survive ability.  However they are extremely fast and you are generally able to get within 35 cm easily.  Pulse weapons can be absolutely wicked and scatter lasers are decent against both infantry and vehicles. They were the real hitters. Shoot the shorter range scatters first then the heavier longer range weapons.  

Firestorms are only 5+ but also pulse (45) and I intend to keep them as they are good AAA.  

Vipers survive better but they are not as active in shooting. However they are cheaper and more expendable. With a formation of 10 vipers you can put some serious fire down on an enemy formation.  But concentration of fire is the best. I did not have experience with the jetbikes as to their effectiveness except HTH, but frankly everything beats Tau in HTH.  

I still like the concept of the hotrodding horse archers but want to playtest other units as well for a more combined approach.  I enjoyed all the units.

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 Post subject: Using Saim-Hann
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 1:35 am 
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Here was my take on S-H, given my battle with the Space Wolves:

Let me start off by saying that I really liked the 13-stand Wind Rider formations (Chieftan and 5 Jetbikes, plus 6 Jetbikes upgrade, plus the Farseer on a Jetbike). I did not take the Shining Spears upgrade for these units; my next Epic purchase, however, will remedy that. (More on that later.) These formations could take 5 hits (6 blast markers) and they STILL weren't broken. THAT is tough. Add the Shining Spears adds three more stands.

How I Used the Wind Rider Hosts
-------------------------------

1. Setup so that you have one Wind Rider host within 50 cm of a target and another Wind Rider host within 85 cm of the same target. (Obviously, you aren't going to be doing this on turn one, unless your opponent makes a serious blunder in rushing towards you.)

2. Advance the farther unit up to within 15cm of a target and fire the Vypers. Sure, you need 6's to hit, but you add a blast marker and that will become critical in the next step. The key is to get as many stands within 15 cms of the target as possible. Get up to 5 cm if you have to, in order to cram them all in.

3. Retain the initiative and move the closer unit to engage the target. Note: NO units have to get in base-to-base contact with the enemy; you only have to get within 15 cm. However, to get the extra attacks with the Chieftain or Farseer, or with the lance of the Shining Spears, you have to be in Close Combat.

During the assault, if your units are fresh, you will have roughly 10 4+ firefight rolls, 12+ 5+ firefight rolls, and 5 4+ close combat rolls against the target. On average, that is 11.5 hits or about 5 unsaved hits (if Space Marines). You, on the other hand, are going to be at a 4+ save and he is unlikely to get many hits against you at all. If it is, say, a Tactical SM squad, he is at 6 4+ and 3 5+ (if I recall correctly), so about 4 hits and 2 being kills.

4. At the end of the assault, you both roll 2D6 and take the highest, plus add the modifiers. You will be +5 for kills, +1 because he started with a Blast marker (see step 2 above), +1 for outnumbered, +1 for outnumbered x 2, and if the Chieftain is still alive, +1 for Inspiring Leader. You will be at a base +9! He will be somewhere around +2, unless he got a lot of kills and you failed those saves. For every point you are above him, you kill another stand -- with NO saving throw! In this example, you are now +7, so you can see that you are going to put a serious hurting on him.

5. When Wind Riders consolidate after a victory, they move 35 cm -- not the standard 5 cm -- in any direction. So you move them back into cover. That unit will now be the further unit for the next wave assault.

Note that you don't need to use just two units, you can use any number that you feel you can cram into that 15cm range. Just keep repeating step 2 as often as you can.  :cool:

This strategy took out a full Landspeeder formation and a full Terminator formation (neither of which had started with any blast markers) for me, so I was pleased (given my bad start).

It is also possible to use the consolidation move to "roll up the flank". Unit A1 moves and shoots enemy B1. Unit A2 engages enemy unit B1 and destroys it. Unit A2 moves to consolidate within 15 cm of enemy unit B2. Unit A3 engages enemy unit B2 and destroys it, etc. But, admittedly, you really have to have your ducks lined up for that.

Where I Got Whacked
-------------------
When skimmers attack, they can choose whether the combat will be firefight or close combat. I made the mistake of choosing close combat with the Terminators, not realizing that: a) they get an extra if they are in close combat, and b) their weapons' hits grant no armor saves. Had I known that, my results against the Terminators would probably not have resulted in my Wind Riders breaking.

My Saim-Hann Strategy
------------------
Early Saim-Hann moves are not to get potshots in with the Vypers, but to move into covered positions from where you can launch assaults. The Jetbikes are the killers, not the Vypers (see Wind Rider Host Composition below for more explanation).

When faced with a relatively low mobility, infantry-heavy force like the Space Marines, it is important to lure them out to a flank and then make a triple move to the opposite flank. They cannot recover from the attack re-direction easily. (Just make sure that the flank you lure them to is the right one -- the one with fewer objectives.)

Wind Rider Host Composition
---------------------------
Basically, I was going with what I had, but now I have an idea on how I want to flesh things out. As the emphasis is on assault with this army composition, using 1 Chieftain, 1 Farseer, 8 Jetbikes, 3 Vypers, and 3 Shining Spears seems optimal. This is a 16 stand formation that will be hard to break. Of course, the formation is also 500 points.

I think only three Vypers are needed, as you are really only going for the automatic 1 blast (everything else is gravy). The real killing power of this list is not the 5+ 30 cm Scatter Laser of the Vypers, but the 4+ firefight value of the Jetbikes. So maximizing on the Jetbikes, yet still leaving yourself enough of a cushion to continue giving 1 blast for shooting at the enemy with your Vypers, seems the way to go.

If you can go base-to-base with a stand and safely do close combat rather than firefight -- this would be against units that aren't dangerous in close combat (unlike Terminators, which are extremely dangerous in close combat) -- then you should do so with the Chieftain, Farseer, and Shining Spears, as they have far better close combat skills. The one thing to note, however, is that hits are allocated from the front, for assault, so you are definitely placing them in harms way. However, it is not a foregone conclusion that they will die. Hits must be allocated evenly, so they cannot get a second hit until every stands gets a hit allocated. That means if you have two full units (32 stands) engaged or supporting, you cannot get a second hit on the Chieftain until the 33rd hit! :laugh:

Summary
-------
1. The Saim-Hann army should be played as a light cavalry, assault-oriented, HORDE army. You can try and make it into something else (by buying Aspects, Guardians, Falcons, etc.), but the core units are these large formations of killer light cavalry.

2. The sole purpose of firing with these formations is to produce a single blast marker, which grants you +1 in assault resolution. Any other result is just gravy. Trying for a better result in favor of assault is not cost-effective.

3. The Dark Eldar are right when they say: "Speed is my Armor." The best saving throw is the one you don't have to take because you have moved out of range of his shooting. Lure the slow troops to the woods or flank and then zoom well out of their range. If you were able to get them to commit on turn 2 before your unit moved, you may have gained a significant advantage from which they might not recover.

4. Always know how to win the game. :) I admit that I had no clue. I knew that I needed objectives, but I did not know it was specific objectives, in combination, along with other factors. I might have won turn 3 had I known how scoring worked. (Admittedly, I STILL don't know how scoring works!)

In my game, the Falcons performed miserably, mostly because they collected a blast marker from being shot at, but could never rally and shake them. (It did not help that they missed an activation and gained a blast marker that way too.) The last two rallies (turn 2 and 3) they rolled 1's and became ineffective shooters. The 2+ initiative makes a difference.

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 Post subject: Using Saim-Hann
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 1:59 am 
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Good summary Ronin. Will be interesting to see what oher more experienced hands have to say.

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 Post subject: Using Saim-Hann
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:56 am 
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Hi

I have not yet played with/against jetbikes yet so not my area of expertise. However with SM Bikes/Attack Bikes I feel that best split is to have 1 formation of all Bikes and another of all Attack Bikes.

I wonder whether the best combination for Sain Hann would be to have 1 larger formation of just jetbikes and 1 smaller formation with max number of Vypers.

How do you think that would work in practice?

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 Post subject: Using Saim-Hann
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 3:18 pm 
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I'd like to hear more on the general feeling of use against the Tau. I think there are some good observations here.

Cheers,

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 Post subject: Using Saim-Hann
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:33 pm 
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Well, Tactica (Rob), I am trying to get a game going with Honda (Jim), but he's a busy man. :)

He likes Wed, but that is my Warmachine night. Maybe I'll have to forego one night so I can see how these Epic Tau differ from the 40K Tau.

Dale

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 Post subject: Using Saim-Hann
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:46 pm 
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One thing I have been thinking about is the need to use the Saim-Hann militia, errrr, Guardians. At 200 pts for the formation, they really help even out the high cost of the Wind Rider formations (which, maxed out, will cost 500 pts). The question is, how to use them?

Given no armor save, they clearly need to get into cover or they are dead, fast. But, their only real firepower is the Wave Serpents' 30 cm cannons. So, effectively, they are going to be hiding behind the tanks which are hiding in the woods, not shooting back unless someone is foolish enough to assault them.

I see them as holding the objectives near your own baseline and otherwise being a speed bump to stop your opponent, but they really have little means of hurting their opponent. But, considering that the game is about objectives and not killing the enemy, maybe that is enough.

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 Post subject: Using Saim-Hann
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:25 pm 
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Quote (wargame_insomniac @ 16 Jan. 2006 (08:56))
I wonder whether the best combination for Sain Hann would be to have 1 larger formation of just jetbikes and 1 smaller formation with max number of Vypers.

How do you think that would work in practice?

Due to the mix of models I bought from someone else, I was forced to use this combination. I had 3 formations: 2 Jetbike-heavy formations (13 stands each), and 1 Vyper-heavy formation (10 stands).

Essentially the question is: what exactly are you going to do with them? They have a 30 cm range, so unless your terrain is close together, or thin, you are going to have to move forward, fire, and then move back. That makes all shots at -1 to hit. Given you are already at 5+, that is not very good odds.

The one time they were "successful", I moved them out in the open, to the rear of a Landspeeder squadron, and cut loose. I then followed up with a Jetbike unit engaging them, so they got to add support.

But, let's look at that tactic. Let's say you load up on Vypers, so that is 11 Vypers, 1 Chieftain, plus other upgrades if you want (we will ignore them for now, as they are the same for a Jetbike-oriented formation, so they cancel each other out). Assuming you advanced to get into position (otherwise you should be engaging), you need 6+ to hit. That is roughly 2 hits (a little less). Given a 4+ save, that is one kill and two blast.

If I had used the formation mix I suggested earlier, which is only 3 stands of Vypers and the rest are Jetbikes, Chieftains, Farseers, and/or Shining Spears, I would have achieved one blast marker, in all likelihood (25% chance to score a casualty and a second blast marker).

Now, when we go to the assault, the Vypers' support in a firefight is 12 units at 5+, so that gives us roughly 4 hits, 2 being saved. The Jetbike formation, on the other hand, gives us 4 units at 5+ and 8 units at 4+ or roughly 5 1/3 hits, so 2-3 hits, depending upon the number of 4+ save.

So in support of an assault, the Vypers-heavy formations do come out slightly ahead, given the initial shots they took prior to the main assault force coming in. When it comes to initiating the assault, the Jetbikes-heavy formations are clearly better (5 1/3 hits vs 4 hits).

Given that, maybe running an Assault formation (1 Farseer, 1 Chieftain, 3 Shining Spears, and 11 Jetbikes) in tandem with a Support formation (1 Farseer, 1 Chieftain, and 11 Vypers) is the best combination. Cap that with a 200 pt Militia (Guardian) formation to add a cheap activation and you have a nice 1100 pt force!

Right now I have two of the Assault (less the Shining Spears) and almost one of the Support formations, so I can start trying it out soon.

Dale

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 Post subject: Using Saim-Hann
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:38 pm 
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Quote (code_ronin @ 16 Jan. 2006 (19:25))
Given that, maybe running an Assault formation (1 Farseer, 1 Chieftain, 3 Shining Spears, and 11 Jetbikes) in tandem with a Support formation (1 Farseer, 1 Chieftain, and 11 Vypers) is the best combination. Cap that with a 200 pt Militia (Guardian) formation to add a cheap activation and you have a nice 1100 pt force!

Right now I have two of the Assault (less the Shining Spears) and almost one of the Support formations, so I can start trying it out soon.

Dale

That sounds interesting- look forward to seeing how it goes in practice.

Cheers

James

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 Post subject: Using Saim-Hann
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 2:03 am 
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I fought with my Saim-Hann again today. This time I fielded 2000 pts. Here was my list:

Wind Riders War Host @ 400 pts (1 Wild Riders, 1 Farseer on Jetbike, 8 Jetbikes, 3 Vypers)
Wind Riders War Host @ 400 pts (1 Wild Riders, 1 Farseer on Jetbike, 11 Vypers)
Cobras x 2 @ 500
Guardians @ 200
Guardians @ 200
Falcons x 5 @ 250
Wraithgate @ 50 (forgot to deploy this...)
Avatar @ 0 (I don't have the model and did not deploy this...)

* My Jetbike-heavy formation would normally be 500 pts as it would also have the Shining Spears upgrade, but I do not have the models yet...

As you can see (and to my Ork opponent's dismay) I have seven activations here (the Cobras are two units, but one Troupe pick - I hope ??? ), so I think that is pretty good.

The Guardians fared much better than I expected. In support they are 4+ FF; that is just tremendous. Same with the Wave Serpents. I was able to Advance 70cm and dismount (another 10cm) to lend support (15cm); that's a total threat range of 95cm (85cm if the Wave Serpents are to lend support too).

In the end, it was a Wave Serpent from the remaining Guardian formation that won me the game by Marching 105cm across the field and getting the Blitzkrieg objective! :)

The big question in my mind is whether the second Wind Rider War Host needs to be all Vypers or not, as previously discussed. The fire from Advance is so weak (with the -1 to hit), it just does not seem worth it. You really only care about that single blast marker, which three Vypers can certainly do sufficiently.

I am now leaning towards the core army being:

Wind Riders War Host @ 500 pts (1 Wild Riders, 1 Farseer on Jetbike, 8 Jetbikes, 3 Vypers, 3 Shining Spears)
Wind Riders War Host @ 400 pts (1 Wild Riders, 1 Farseer on Jetbike, 8 Jetbikes, 3 Vypers)
Guardians @ 200 pts
Falcons @ 250 pts
= 1350 pts

Why only one Wind Rider War Host with the Shining Spears upgrade? I think it is a potential weakness to have more than one unit count as the "most expensive", so if I am running with one core, then only one of the units in the army will count as most expensive.

The interesting thing was, I thought that I would be guarding the enemy's objectives on my side of the board with the Guardians, but they turned out to be real front-line troops!

Dale

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 Post subject: Using Saim-Hann
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 8:46 pm 
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Ronin we need a batrep on this.  Need to see how your eldar bested the greenskins so handily.

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 Post subject: Using Saim-Hann
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 9:06 pm 
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Played another game with the Saim-Hann last Thursday, this time in a 3000pt game against Space Marines.

Points of note  
1) used new experimental pop up rules which hampers Eldar    
   more than most
2) used previously discussed prices for windrider hosts
   250pts base cost and the 100/150pts cost for upgrades.

Saim-Hann
Windrider warhost + 6 jetbikes + Farseer
Windrider warhost + 3 jetbikes + Farseer
Windrider warhost + 3 jetbikes + Farseer
Windrider warhost + 3 jetbikes
(each Warhost had 3 Vypers)

6 Guardians in wave serpents
4 Swooping Hawks incl exarch
5 Falcons
3 Fire Prisms
3 Fire Prisms
1 Storm Serpent

Marines
Terminators incl SC
Terminators incl C
Assault
Assault
Tactical incl 2 Razorbacks
Tactical incl 2 Razorbacks
Tactical
Devastator
Whirlwinds
Whirlwinds

At the end of turn 4 Marines were leading 2-1 (BTS + T&H v BTS) when the game ?officially? ended. However we played on another two turns and on turn 6 Saim-Hann eventually won
3-1.

Biggest influence was the storm serpent failing its initiative on all the first three turns effectively keeping a windrider warhost inside. The first activation for the Marines was always to target the SS and place a blast marker on it reducing it to a 3+ activation.
The terminators arrived on turn 2 and in conjunction with other marine units managed to break / destroy two windrider warhosts.
However despite this the windrider warhosts still managed to do the most damage for the Eldar and the untouched warhost emerging from the Storm Serpent on turn 4 tipped the balance.

Marine player failed no activation rolls during the game.
Saim-Hann failed 8 activation rolls during the first 4 turns.

While in about 12 games with this list my win ratio is just over 50% in discussion with my gaming group this might be due to the fact my opponents know I`ll be play testing Saim-Hann and can tailor their armies accordingly.

On this forum I`ve seen a few ways suggested to reduce the armies effectiveness.

1) Increase cost of Windrider Warhosts & upgrades. I do
   agree with this in principle and play with the 250 base cost
   and 100/150pts upgrades and this seems about right.

2) Windrider Warhosts to drop to 2+ initiative.  This seems to  
   fit the fluff well although be prepared to fail a lot of
   activations (especially with no supreme commander
   available).
   Incidentally, with Ulthwe armies given a strategy rating of
   5+ to reflect the abundance of Seers etc, it might be
   fitting for the barbaric nature of Saim-Haan to be reflected
   in a 3+ strategy rating.  I certainly wouldn`t be adverse to
   either of these suggestions as they do fit the fluff.

3) There has been some discussion around limiting certain of  
   the additional Saim-Hann units like SHGTs & Revenants
   etc. I think limiting the army like this makes it much duller
   to play, with less variety and would make it stuggle
   against ATML and other WE heavy armies. I think the
   composition of the army list is pretty good as it is and it?s
   the points per effectiveness of certain units that needs
   fine-tuned.

4) Reduce the effectiveness of the Vampire Hunter. Now I`ve
   only used it a couple of times and not really found OTT
   and even in its current incarnation I still think the Biel-Tan
   Vampire with tooled up Guardian squads is much superior.
   However if others with more experience believe it is overly
   powerful then certainly it should be reduced in potency.

5) The inclusion of War Walkers or Scouts. I was against this
   initially as it never seemed to fit my views of the fast
   reaction, mobile nature of the Saim-Hann. However even
   this craftworld will need some troops deployed on planets
   to scout out the enemy etc prior to the Windrider hosts
   descending so perhaps their inclusion is warranted. If their
   inclusion needs to be at the expense of another unit then
   I`d argue for the Night Spinners.  While they are no slower
   than other elements of the army they are usually used in a
   fairly stationary role and their slow falling web has always
   seemed at odds with a fast hitting, always moving army.


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 Post subject: Using Saim-Hann
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 12:54 am 
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Quote (woodelf_dave @ 23 Jan. 2006 (15:06))

For the record, I am considering all possibilities for list changes here. Some of the ideas I've tossed out are on the radical side. Other days I ponder if Saim Hann should get a full Craftworld treatment instead of their far reaching force. At this time I have had no personal experience using Saim Hann.

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 Post subject: Using Saim-Hann
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 1:57 am 
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Quote (jfrazell @ 23 Jan. 2006 (19:46))
Ronin we need a batrep on this. ?Need to see how your eldar bested the greenskins so handily.

I asked Shawn for a list, but got no reply (as of yet). Also, see my rules question here and you'll see why I won "so handily". Shawn thought the consolidation destroyed his unit when it withdrew broken. The consensus so far is that would not have been destroyed. That was an Ork formation with something like 16 stands remaining. Unless he really blew the rally, he would have Advanced right back into the game.

Now that I have a better feel for the Orks, however, I think I can do better than I did. At 500 pts, I am not sure I would have taken the Cobras again (they really only gave me 2 6+ rolls each, per turn  so that is worse than a formation of Falcons at 1/2 the price  :/ ).

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