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new england elysians

 Post subject: new england elysians
PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:06 pm 
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given that Deb has step down from being AC for the elysian I wanted to throw my hat into the ring. I admit when putting this together I was also helping deb developed the NETEA list, you might even notice some similarites but also some big differences. I want honest opinion's on the direction I'm headed and what peoples thoughts on it are. this simply a think tank and I will happily just help develop the netea list if I don't get chosen as AC.


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Last edited by kingzog on Sat Jan 29, 2022 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: new england elysians
PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:11 pm 
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I dig it.
I'd rename the Grey Ghosts to Elysian Veterans as that was actually something in IA3 (1st edition at least). Rose by any other name, however; No issues with the unit itself.
I'd give access to both Lightning Interceptors and Lightning Strikes (both have EA stats)

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 Post subject: Re: new england elysians
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:19 am 
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I've been going through the v3 and v4 threads all day to see where we are with this list. I really think Deb did some good work, especially when reviewing all the threads again today and taking a lot of notes.

I want to work up my version of the v5 list, taking what I think v4 got right, all the noted issues and steer it back towards the latest canonical list we have (IA8). When we built the V1-3 lists, they were based on the IA Elysian lists, and there's definitely some things that got left out that should find their way back into the list.

I've also been reading through a lot of the threads on Planetfall/Self Planetfall/even Teleport again to try to figure out how to better approach that aspect of the list.


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 Post subject: Re: new england elysians
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:44 pm 
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I think Planetfall with a free unit (not a spaceship) that activates for the combined drop is probably the best route to go myself mechanically. Represents the assault force coming in onto the battlefield and prevents individual units getting shot to shit as they individually activate.

Maybe you two should form up like Voltron and collaborate on a list together?

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 Post subject: Re: new england elysians
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:33 pm 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
I think Planetfall with a free unit (not a spaceship) that activates for the combined drop is probably the best route to go myself mechanically. Represents the assault force coming in onto the battlefield and prevents individual units getting shot to shit as they individually activate.


This was exactly the direction I was thinking we should go. Basically works just like Planetfall, sans the need to purchase a Lunar Cruiser. It'd essentially work in a similar way, pick your turn, make your roll for arrival. If they arrive, everything lands and is immediately considered disembarked (thereby triggering overwatch fire).

The other thing I would change is that they aren't subject to the rule where only one space craft can be over the board at any time. So if for example, you declared turn 1, and your opponent had a spacecraft arriving on turn 2, your failed roll would not prevent the drop troops from coming in on turn 2. If we kept that logic...it could be more than half the game before planetfall happens.

Now...here is where this could get sticky...people get antsy when you start messing with set rules. So my suggestion/thought is we just create an army rule called Drop Troops which we write up as a modified Planetfall. This was the path I was going to take with this after looking at everything that's been proposed/discussed. People don't like Teleport, Planetfall requires a space craft (which isn't canonical), and self planetfall usually ends up with piecemeal broken formations....so this to me seems like the best path forward.

I was thinking instead of placing a spaceship model on the board, we place a lone Valkyrie model to represent the high altitude Valkyries deploying the drop troops (could be any marker really, a Valkyrie is just thematically cool).

My two cents.


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 Post subject: Re: new england elysians
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 9:57 pm 
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I don't think self planetfall is as busted or bad as people say it is. But since I don't wanna derive form the main topic we should leave this discussion for the official development thread. This was simply a resume I put out for the position, with the added idea of getting some community feedback

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 Post subject: Re: new england elysians
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:02 am 
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Spaceship could be a free choice and be considered only a transport ship. I personally don't mind them needing a spaceship even if it's not canonical. It makes everything simpler as no special rule is required.
Also why people don't like teleport?

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 Post subject: Re: new england elysians
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:02 am 
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Teleport was what we ended up with back in the 2006 list. It seemed to work the best back then, and I would argue it still works well.

In general, I think people don't like it as it allows you to exactly target a spot, for pretty much each formation in your army, and deploy it there, whenever you want. You can do this on any turn, for example - massive teleporting the whole army early on, piecemeal across precise turns, massive teleporting later in game...it gives a lot of flexibility and precision to the army. With that flexibility though comes the likelihood of at least a couple of blast markers for a formation of 12 drop troops teleporting in (I think that's fine and representative of the chaos of grav-chuting onto the battlefield).

Planetfall and self planetfall both definitely give you less control (both on when, and where your troops show up).


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 Post subject: Re: new england elysians
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:51 am 
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This would be enough, I think. No new "almost but not quite planetfall" rule.

Code:
Air Drop  SC  n/a  n/a  n/a  n/a
Notes: Transport. May transport X whatevers, and enough Drop Zones to transport any other units being carried. Air Drop may arrive on a turn that has already been taken by another spacecraft and does not prevent a spacecraft from arriving on the same turn as it (see 4.3.1).

Drop Zones  Special  n/a  n/a  n/a  n/a
Notes: Planetfall, Transport. May transport one formation of whatevers. After the drop zone lands any units carried must disembark within 5cm of the drop zone or within 5cm of another unit from the same formation that has already disembarked, so long as all units are placed within 15cm of the drop zone.


I'm also in the camp that thinks Self Planetfall is fine too, either can work. Self Planetfall should probably have a surcharge though. That's what I did for Raven Guard.

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 Post subject: Re: new england elysians
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:58 am 
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I completely disagree on teleport, it's a horrible mechanic for this.

You have little to no shooting. What shooting you do have is short ranged and in big formations. So you can bring yourself down within range of the enemy, get a few BMs for your trouble, and them promptly loose strategy with your SR 2. Then you get to watch as two of your formations (which you graciously prepped with BMs for your opponent) get assaulted and broken before you do anything with them.

Alternatively, you come down away from the enemy and hide in cover, marshalling maybe or just waiting around. Not exactly an enthralling game.

Go with Pf or SPf. Leave teleport alone for this one.

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 Post subject: Re: new england elysians
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:25 am 
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I'm not particularly married to any one of the options personally, I think they all have their own challenges.

Self planetfall can be rough though...you can end up with a very piecemeal force landing which promptly gets cut to bits. Elysian's need mass (no matter the method chosen) to be able to (hopefully) survive. Elysians are already a fairly fragile army, self planetfall makes them even more so. I think it works for some armies, but not the Elysians. Planetfall is kind of what I see as the middle ground option of the three.

I think the idea of creating drop zones with mandatory disembark in place of drop pods is definitely an interesting one.......


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 Post subject: Re: new england elysians
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:55 pm 
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I like what you did there, Dave.

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 Post subject: Re: new england elysians
PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:21 am 
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Dave, I was re-reading this, and I think what you are proposing and what I was proposing with a modified planetfall, reach the exact same result (they play exactly the same really). The only difference is you are creating a new unit (more palatable) vs me creating a new rule (which was a modified old rule and less palatable).

I didn't play a game, but rather laid out a scenario on the table to look at how it would work. I think it could work very well, and solve at least one of the issues people raise in the list. What in people's opinion is the downside to doing it this way?

Some good thinking Dave!


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 Post subject: Re: new england elysians
PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:55 pm 
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I did test a few months ago with the list posted in this thread and I used the self planet fall on one of drop companies. Although I didn't win the game I found my self losing not because of the list being bad but I didn't win because of my decisions making. The main thing I found was even though I'm dropping a shit load of stands on my enemy, there still guard(no armor saves!) and suddenly that gave a whole lot more depth to when where and how I drop. Games by your self aren't to bad but they don't get the same detail as games with another player.

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 Post subject: Re: new england elysians
PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:20 pm 
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Yes, it is no substitute for actual game play - but they are good to laser focus on exact scenarios for testing purposes. They do allow you to understand exactly what you are describing...that being when you say OK, lets model a landing, and then flip the table to play out an opponents reaction, you realize that you are still dealing with unarmored guardsmen who die in droves.

I'm all for more actual game time for testing rules, I'm also for more people modeling it out on their kitchen tables to say "what if" as I think it's easier to do than get full games in. What I personally like about it is the ability to take everything else away and focus on looking at certain scenarios, being able to repeat it a few times with changing variables. Thing that are harder to do in actual games.


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