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2 questions after games

 Post subject: 2 questions after games
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:33 am 
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2 questions after games day on sunday.

- Does a broken formation get a blastmarker if they are within 15cm of an engagement lost by their side?
My take on it is that although they can't actually support, they are still in a potentiel position to do so.
The relevant rules text:
Quote:
Finally, any formations belonging to the losing side that were in a position to have lent support (i.e., they were within 15cms of an enemy unit in the assault) receive one Blast marker each, even if they did not actually lend support. These Blast markers represent the detrimental effect on morale of seeing friends defeated in an assault.


- How is barrage weapons and cover and/or Line of fire played? We had a situation where a Supa-Stompa shot with it's 6BP weapon against a formation of Wraithlords with a sustained fire action. Now the Supa-Stompa could only see 2 Wraithlords, but both templates could cover the entire formation. Are there cover to hit modifiers on the Wraithlord units that were not in Line of Fire? And can the first template be placed so that it both covers models within and without Line of Fire?


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 Post subject: Re: 2 questions after games
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:56 am 
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Yes to both questions, barrage weapons can very much 'shoot around corners'

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 Post subject: Re: 2 questions after games
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 2:18 pm 
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And the cover modifier question (whether hull down applies to direct fire barrage and if so which units) has never really been settled.

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 Post subject: Re: 2 questions after games
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:59 am 
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As the owner of the supa-stompa it should be noted that I declared firing only at the wraithlords outside of cover to avoid the to hit modifier. The question was then whether I could still place the templates over the rest of the formation (we decided I could) and then whether the to hit modifier applied to those units in cover (I think we played that it did).


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 Post subject: Re: 2 questions after games
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:42 am 
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Usually when we play it, if shooting around corners, the units have to physically be in terrain to count as in cover, just being out of LOS is not enough to give them a 'hull down' bonus

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 Post subject: Re: 2 questions after games
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:43 am 
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tgjensen wrote:
As the owner of the supa-stompa it should be noted that I declared firing only at the wraithlords outside of cover to avoid the to hit modifier. The question was then whether I could still place the templates over the rest of the formation (we decided I could) and then whether the to hit modifier applied to those units in cover (I think we played that it did).

I play it that units beyond direct LOF that are affected by a template "shooting around a corner" get a cover save if they're inside a piece of area terrain that would normally grant a cover save eg:a building, but if they're in the open then they don't get a cover save (or a -1 to hit penalty on the template's attacks)

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 Post subject: Re: 2 questions after games
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:54 am 
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Is there a "rational" explanation for this shooting round corners ?

When its come up with new players it really tends to get their goat (must admit it got mine too). Though i can follow the logic by the RAW it seems to negate most of the distinction between direct vs indirect. The "flanking effect" explanation tends to pacify the clipping assault countercharge oddity - is there a similar explanation been developed for this?


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 Post subject: Re: 2 questions after games
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:32 am 
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tgjensen wrote:
As the owner of the supa-stompa it should be noted that I declared firing only at the wraithlords outside of cover to avoid the to hit modifier. The question was then whether I could still place the templates over the rest of the formation (we decided I could) and then whether the to hit modifier applied to those units in cover (I think we played that it did).


Yeah, we did play it with the -1 modifier on the units out of Lne of Fire. We asked some of the other players and they thought it should be played that way too. But it is apparent that there is no sure thing about it.


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 Post subject: Re: 2 questions after games
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:58 am 
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Blip wrote:
Is there a "rational" explanation for this shooting round corners ?

When its come up with new players it really tends to get their goat (must admit it got mine too). Though i can follow the logic by the RAW it seems to negate most of the distinction between direct vs indirect. The "flanking effect" explanation tends to pacify the clipping assault countercharge oddity - is there a similar explanation been developed for this?


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We tend to play no cover save partly because its just faster than faffing around working out who under the barrage is/isn't in LOF. For fluff purposes my view is that a barrage doesn't really miss troops out in the open as is just a big old heap of ordinance (usually coming from above even if it is direct fire).

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 Post subject: Re: 2 questions after games
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:52 pm 
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It kinda makes sense that a big explodey ball nearby wouldn't care about line of sight but still thing there are some gaming oddities with it. For instance, if you can only see units that are actually hull down do you apply the modifier to those units? But not to the ones that are entirely hidden?

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 Post subject: Re: 2 questions after games
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:28 pm 
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Kyrt wrote:
It kinda makes sense that a big explodey ball nearby wouldn't care about line of sight but still thing there are some gaming oddities with it. For instance, if you can only see units that are actually hull down do you apply the modifier to those units? But not to the ones that are entirely hidden?

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I would say that that situation is exactly why cover to hit modifier should apply to units out of Line of Fire.


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 Post subject: Re: 2 questions after games
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:56 pm 
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Kyrt wrote:
It kinda makes sense that a big explodey ball nearby wouldn't care about line of sight but still thing there are some gaming oddities with it. For instance, if you can only see units that are actually hull down do you apply the modifier to those units? But not to the ones that are entirely hidden?

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Yeah, i could live with the template being centred on a unit in LOS with other units under the template hit as normal.

What seems odd is that (as it came up in one of my games) as RAW the template(s) could be placed *entirely* out of LOS (following the rule that you have to target the most number of targets). Obviously the unit is bunched up behind cover so the formation in this ruling becomes more vulnerable than if they had just spread out in the open. Also hard to see how the ordinance reaches the target if it is a direct fired weapon...

Would have been much simpler (and more consistent) to say only units in LOS could be allocated hits, even if other units are covered - as do all other weapons in the game, ie. extra hits are allocated to those visible until all hits are allocated.


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 Post subject: Re: 2 questions after games
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 11:33 pm 
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No at least one unit under the first template has to be in line of sight

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 Post subject: Re: 2 questions after games
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 11:46 pm 
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However the rulebook is particularly weakly worded on barrages, in particular this part many people find difficult to square with the above interpretation:

"templates must be placed in such a way as to get as many enemy units from the target formation under them as possible within the restrictions for lines of fire and range."

And with that the ambiguity of the sentence regarding additional templates - either 'you may choose ... and no restrictions apply' or 'you may choose, so long as no restrictions apply'.

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 Post subject: 2 questions after games
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:35 am 
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Yep, thats exactly the issue. Once you know its easy to remember and I'm happy to play it that way. But initially my (and the couple of people who i have had to introduce to this ruling mid-game) not surprisingly read with emphasis on "place within the restriction of LOF" both from the wording and "common sense." Hence, my query as to a sensible fluff explanation. I guess the answer is, either way the missile itself is shot indirect, the difference is the targeting technology. Only "indirect" weapons can detect and target entirely hidden formations - but it still makes the distinction very narrow.


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