As per the discussion here a couple months ago, I've prepared a list based on the existing Stigmatus Cult list, but pulling out all the traitor guard elements in favor of more Daemon Engines. Unless I've made any mistakes (likely; error checking welcome!) the only changes should be:

1) Removal of any traitor guard elements, including but not limited to Chimeras, Hydras, traitor fire support and traitor navy.

2) Addition of a light vehicle Technical; a flatbed truck with a mounted heavy stubber with a weak AA shot as a lower tech replacement for the removed hydra.

3) Adoption of the generic changes put forward for Black Legion; removal of faction rule, change to Daemon costs and summoning and the ability to sacrifice to summon a Greater Daemon (see below)

4) Removal of support coven types (they're all Deamon Engines now) and the increase to two allowed per core formation.

5) I've probably forgot something else they'll probably be minor.


Potential issues:

At the moment, the only unit with Augmented Summoning which can now be sacrificed to summon a Greater Daemon is the Demagogue; potentially very fluffy but means you'd be sacrificing your Supreme Commander possibly and you wouldn't easily be able to summon a Greater Daemon with a formation lead by an Aspiring Champion or Daemon Prince, which doesn't seem to make sense.

There's a couple of formatting issues, I believe I forgot to include the statblock for Daemonic Beasts and there's still a lot of references to Stigmatus Covenent rather than Lost and the Damned. these will all be fixed in v0.2.

Nothing has been done with the Chaos Alter, which is commonly viewed as probably being over costed and/or not good enough. Suggestions welcome.



I will be playtesting the attached and posting results here. Anyone else wanting to comment or playtest would be welcome.

Edit 2:

V0.3 (belatedly) released. Mainly error corrections in this release but Altar has had a faster option added, Firelords have had their cost reduced and Doomwings have had their range extended.

Like the look of this Mike.

Couple of points, if the summoning is to be as in the BL list then Daemonic Pact should be 25 points with free daemon and you need to Alter the Alter to Altar .

Would they though? the Black Legion Daemonic Pact is 25 points, but it was 25 points before the change so didn't change cost and was changed primarily to encourage taking daemons. LatD Daemonic Pacts were always free, basically being part of the cost of the Covens, so adding a 25 points cost on now would I think just disincentivise Daemons in the one list, more than any other, that really should be taking Daemons.

regarding your other point; I'm open to alter-natives.

I am glad someone is tackling this list.

Several comments:

- Daemonic pacts are only free in England. In the rest of the world, LatD never had free daemonic pacts. I believe this is the right way to go though, even for other Chaos lists.

- I am not quite sure why 3 Decimators and 3 Ferals is bad in Black Legion, but 6-8 Questors is alright for LatD in 3k lineups. I would definetely prefer facing the former than the latter. Personally, I would review all the daemon engines stats for better balance.

One suggestion:

- I would like to suggest the addition of God-aligned Daemon hordes (1 per coven). Something like 6 minor daemon units and a herald character for 225 points, with the option of adding minor daemons and/or Greater daemons at 25/150 a piece. All daemons in a daemon horde would benefit from the teleport special rule to represent them gating in due to the chaos rituals of the coven. Alternative mechanics (and consequent point costs) could be Eldar-style gates or planetfall.
This would be a radical evolution of the list, but would give them what they need in terms of assault potential and justify the loss of IG stuff. With this addition, perhaps keeping the 0-1 per coven limit to daemon engines could be looked at.

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Latd daemon engines are 2+ initiative and 2+ strategy which makes a huge difference, they are backed up by very poor infantry not marines, to have 8 you would have no AA, no transport, no upgrades and 8 BTS formations - even 6 would severely limit you. Finally none of the daemon engines are as good as ferals, death wheels or decimators they are either slow, purely CC units or flyers. Tge exception being the questor which is great vs infantry in the open but sub-feral or DW otherwise

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I was suggesting 2+ initiative on Black legion Daemon engines.



Thats all integrated in point costs. Besides, Big mutants are hardly "poor" infantry.



All these limitations could be brought up for the 3 Decimator + DW/Feral combo. And yes, buying a lot of good stuff, means you are going to have less of the other good stuff. Sounds about right.



Questors are devastating in my experience. Advance in position at 40 cm of an enemy infantry formation (in cover or not), shoot benefitting from the range extension of the battlecannons, next turn sustain kills even huge ork formations. The effet is similar on AVs simply because they lack cover. Their assault capability is awesome too, with 3+ FF and 2 shields. To have to face 6 + 4 covens + other support units in a 3k army is a daunting prospect.

Perhaps this is a Questor issue, though, and it should be looked at.

I however disagree with your statement that the Questor is the only DE that might be too powerful. Lord of Battles is definitely high on the danger list, not to mention the Hellfire cannons.

Some others are clearly underpowered, the Plague Tower, the Firelord being the most obvious.

Don't get me wrong, I am suggesting a reexamination of all daemon engines (ability and point costs), not wholly throwing away the possibility of having 2 daemon engine formations per coven. I am also suggesting an alternative, which is the addition of daemon hordes to the list instead of popcorning daemon engines.

For example, I think the idea of Capt piett of making the Slaanesh Knight 2 DC War engines absolutely excellent. They are clearly underpriced in the current EC list, but at 100 apiece I believe they would be a great improvement over their currently weird incarnation, whereby they have too much firepower and too little resilience for a unit at that price. The increase in price for the Questor in that list is also a good idea, though I would prefer a review of its stats.

If development on the other chaos lists was actually going anywhere, we might also find good ideas for Daemon engine evolution. For example, Frogbear had mentioned that the current Khorne engines were unsatisfying for different reasons.

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"War is not about who is right, but about who is left". - B. Russell

Don't forget this is not an official list.
It is, as the title says, an experimental list.
So it's a list that needs testing and feedback before it progress' to become an actual list or even replaces one and may see many changes on the way.
That's where Mike will need feedback from test games and battle reports.
Fears, suggestions, ideas and theory only slightly help to develop a list but true testing ad reporting of those battles are what will help shape the list and push it forward.

Point taken. I also note that only members of the EUK crew are responding, and all support each other in this topic (and in many others). Do only English people play Chaos?

As it is, this evolution is completely uninspired and suffers from a complete lack of creativity. There is just nothing to it. If you are going to go through the trouble of bringing a list down from Approved down to experimental, one would hope that you actually would do something with it. (A Technical, seriously?)

Now as we are in an Experimental list, development is open, and all the famous maxims of "no change unless broken" yada yada do not apply. Therefore I am suggesting to actually put balls behind the choice of bringing down the approved list and redesign the daemon engines. No amount of testing will tell us that alternative stats would be better than the current ones, unless we actually come up with alternative stats.

How about my suggestion for daemon hordes? No amount of testing will replace a development decision to try them out or not.

If EUK wants another tasteless list, I honestly would rather they develop it in their own corner of the world and not inflict it on the whole Epic community.

None of the above is meant as personal attacks, so don't take it personally and do try to look at what you are doing with a measure of objectivity. The way it looks from over here, is that Steve and the gang are yet again wreaking havoc for obscure reasons.

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(Tongue in cheek on)
WELL PUT UP SOME STATS FOR TESTING, SHOW SOME REPORTS OF WHY YOUR GAMES SHOW THINGS NEED CHANGING.
INSPIRE US WITH YOUR IDEAS.
STOP COMING ACROSS AS A WHINING WAZZACK (tyke for friend ) .
IT'S LIKE LISTENING TO THE WIFE GRUMBLE AND WHEN ASKED WHAT HAVE I DONE WRONG WRONG SHE SAYS IF YOU DON'T KNOW I'M NOT TELLING YOU, BATTLE REPORTS PLEASE TO SHOW US WHERE WE ARE GOING WRONG.
(Tongue in cheek off)


No offence meant to anyone , sorry if it comes across that way.

Glad you got that out of the way .

Now, lets start small, one God at a time:

What about Capt Piett stats for the Slaanesh daemon Knights?

How about even going further and doing something like this:

Daemon Knights (3 for 300)
Move 30 cm, Armour 4+, CC 5+, FF 4+
0-1 Castigator Cannon 30 cm 3xAP3+/AT5+
0-1 Thermal Lance 30 cm MW4+
DC 2, Fearless, Invulnerable save, Scout. Must choose one weapon or the other.


Questor (2 for 450)
Move 35 cm, Armour 5+, CC 5+, FF 3+
2x Castigator cannons 30 cm 3x AP3+/AT5+
2x Tormentor cannon 45 cm 2x AP4+/AT4+
DC 3, Fearless, Invulnerable save, reinforced armour.

Subjugator (2 for 450)
Move 35 cm, Armour 5+, CC 3+, FF 4+
2x Hellblades, MW, TK (D3), EA (+1)
2x Tormentor cannon 45 cm 2x AP4+/AT4+
DC 3, Fearless, Invulnerable save, reinforced armour


Try those and try the old stats and see what you prefer both as opponent and as player.

edit: Explanations:

- For reference, Slaanesh Titans have never had void shields except in the current Latd EA list, neither in Netepic and its past incarnations where it orginated, nor in Apocalypse version of 40k.

- Daemon Knights are currently overgunned and overvulnerable. They are always prime targets because of the danger they represent, have very little survivability or BM resilience, which makes them a poor choice for an army, excpet if you go all out and field multiple formations. The proposed stats give them much resilience, while reducing their ability, making them excellent close support fire units, hard to break (relatively) a pain due to their scout ability.

- The Questor is currently both an assault monster and a shooting nightmare, including at long range. It is however in the fluff depicted as a close fire support unit. The proposed changes reduce its assault ability and resilience (no shields), reduce its range (close support), which should make him fulfill his battlefield role more appropriately. He is very minimally upgunned (at shorter range) and its point cost is reduced to balance. Finally, the option to take singles is removed in the context of a LatD list that allows two support options per coven, so as to limit potential abuse.

- The Subjugator is currently a an all-round poor option that has as only favourable feature its very low cost. In the fluff it is supposed to be an assault monster. Increasing its firepower and firefight ability makes it more versatile, and replacing its void shields (which are useless in CC) with invulnerable save should help it in cc against other war machines. Given its increased ability, it can now be priced at the same level as the Questor.

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"War is not about who is right, but about who is left". - B. Russell

I think they are probably unbalanced at their current points cost (as outlined in the relevant thread). I have play tested them (briefly, and only at 2k), but even on paper i think their stats are too powerful at the price given.


edit: should point out i know nothing at all about LaTD lists, i've never played with or against them. Above comment only relates to knights in EC list, which I had used before and after recent changes.

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I wouldn't put it quite that strongly (they haven't been world-beating), but I'd really rather not have an experimental unit in an experimental list (EC 4.0) drive development in other lists (experimental or not). Judging by MikeTs feelings expressed in other threads, he'd probably consider the idea fanboy nonsense, so trying to get theim tested in this list is most unlikely.

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Please look at the suggested stats in the above post.

I am glad we finally have the intervention of a third party (maybe even 4th?) to this development discussion.

I think it would best if the same miniature would have the same stats across lists, so as to avoid confusion. So as the EC is now experimental and LatD is all undressed and ripe to be taken, lets find unit stats that a majority (if not all) can agree on.

If i remember correctly, mike T's issue with the Piett stats was more that the units had seen their stats increased with no drawback (not even price), rather than the units having been changed at all.

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"War is not about who is right, but about who is left". - B. Russell

Those do look a step in the right direction compared to the current EC knights (if DC2 knights were to be used), especially with RA removed and the much smaller formation size.

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