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Iron Warriors V3.1 (final version)

 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V3.1 (final version)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:37 pm 
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Here's the batrep. Sorry if it's a bit lean on activation detail. Coach can add in comments as necessary.

Iron Warriors 3.1 v Tyranids (Approved)

Nids
Swarm + Dom + Symbiote
Swarm + Hive Tyrant + warrior + carnifex + haruspex
Swarm + HT + warrior + carnifex + haruspex
Swarm + HT + warrior + haruspex
Swarm
Biovores
Genestealers
Lictors
Lictors
Harridan
Hierodule
Trygon

Iron Warriors
IW company
Terminators + 2
Basilisks + emplacements
Basilisks + emplacements
Chosen + 2×dreads + drop pod
Dreadnought assault pack + drop pod + warsmith
Defilers
Vindicators
Decimator
Devastation Crusier

Turn 1
Coach won strategy despite rolling a 1, thanks Nids, and opened up early with his artillery. One basilisk formation shelled a swarm, killing some gaunts and a haruspex. The second basilisk formation direct fired on the hierodule, but couldn't penetrate the carapace. I rallied the swarm formation, removing the blast markets, spawing gaunts back, and moving up field.

The big activation, for the turn and the game, came with coach activating his spacecraft. The orbital clipped one of my swarms, killing some gaunts. He then combined assaulted with the dreadnought and chosen formation. Coach's dice went cold here, with all five of his dreads failing saves along with a couple chosen. He won the assault, with the hive tyrant surviving hack downs, but the dreads with the SC was wiped and his chosen formation was broken. Turn one concluded with formations from both sides advancing.

Turn two saw the trygons tunneling up near the center line and both formations of lictors teleporting near the advancing defilers. Coach won strategy again with a two....

Coach sustained with his decimator and retained with the vindicates to break the trygon formations at the center. The lictors assaulted the defilers, scoring only one hit, which was saved. In turn, the defilers whiffed in attacking as well, only killing on lictor. The engagement ended in a flat roll off with the lictors winning and breaking the defilers. I continued to push forward, using the harridan to place blast markers on the basilisks. Coach let his company on OW, protecting his blitz and the basilisks. Coach teleported his terminators near the dom at the beginning of the turn and engaged the formation, bouncing off and losing four. My hierodule engaged the decimator, ripping it apart with its TK talons.

By turn three, it became a bit of a mop up for the Nids, focusing on breaking enough IWs to grab objectives. Coach tried marching his IW company across the midline to deny TSNP and DtF, but the Doms macro BP killed enough to break them and push them back.

End result: Nids over IW, 4-0 with Blitz, T&H, TSNP, and DtF.

Reaction: Coach had some tough breaks this game, namely the disaster of the combined assault on turn 1. It went from him trying to roll my left flank to losing two activations and allowing me to push the center with my army.

Nids are a tough army to play and dont show up frequently in our meta. I think this threw off Coach a bit as he tried to kill the larger biotitans instead of breaking smaller, non synapse formations to help limit my activations. I think the artillery could have done this nicely, dice permitting. The defilers breaking early in turn 2 was also a tough loss, as that was nearly a sixth of his army that broke after only getting to shoot for one round.

The IW are a very fluffy list. I like that the have a unique play style and army building that really lends itself to a specific style. I think those expensive formations take a bit of a tax on the player, as there isn't much room for forgiveness and you really need each to succeed in its roll. When they get to play their game though, there's a lot of power that can push enemy formations around.

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V3.1 (final version)
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:33 am 
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Thanks Jon. He had some pretty bad luck in our game too. I'll bring my camera down tomorrow and try to post the report. That'll mean one more report from AI North, Brad.

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V3.1 (final version)
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:15 am 
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Here's the promised report from my game against Mard's IW:
viewtopic.php?f=84&t=34000

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V3.1 (final version)
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:55 pm 
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Here's our 6:

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=28836
viewtopic.php?f=84&t=28990
viewtopic.php?f=84&t=29072
viewtopic.php?p=634269#p634269
viewtopic.php?f=84&t=34007
viewtopic.php?f=84&t=34008

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V3.1 (final version)
PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:59 pm 
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And here's a fifth battle report from me: http://www.taccmd.tacticalwargames.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=34023

Hoping I can get a sixth battle report in this coming week (headed back up to CT for work this Sunday, might be able to get a game in Tuesday night). I'll compile my six when I can lock that last game in, and will go back through the archives to collect PFE100's too. That should get us to the point where this list can be submitted for approval >:D

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V3.1 (final version)
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:28 am 
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Ok, here we go, finished up battle report #6 (see below), so racking & stacking everything we have for Iron Warriors v3.1:

PFE100 wrote:


Dave wrote:


Armiger84 wrote:


I think that gets us 6 battle reports each from 3 different groups, so that puts Iron Warriors up for council review and hopefully approval! So... now what do I do?

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V3.1 (final version)
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:37 am 
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PM Steve54 with them and we'll open an ERC thread for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V3.1 (final version)
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 5:57 pm 
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Hi guys,

I attended the world championship in Glasgow using IW with UK list and rules.

Upfront our team debated the list and build frantically into detail.

We were paired badly in the group stages vs the top teams and best players out there. England, Scotland, Sweden

Especially as I wanted to field the siegelord at all cost and still was going for at leat 10 activations. So a tough call and with the pairing less than optimal to say least.

Lost all 3 games of group stage in a range from 0:2 to 0:3. Winning draw and win in plate battles.

1 game: Vanaheim 0:2 - Anti tank army of death. Formations of Vultures on overwatch Vendettas whereever you looked, 4 formations air. Couldn't move anything. Almost all tanks died turn one due to like 20 hits on 2+ at 120cm on overwatch. AA gone. Not a chance in hell. Sieglord was the only light. Whatever it pointed its guns at died. dindn't make a difference in the end.

2 game: Dark Angels drop 0:3 - was forced into corner deployment. DA won strategy. Orbital barrage hit preds with hunters, took out both. Dropped Devastators took out second formation of hunters by shooting. AA gone. Nephillim Flyers killed scout screen (those Nephillim suckers are just filth). 2x Hawks with termies mopped up rest.

3 game: Marines 0:2 - 30 Land Speeders, 2 formations of scouts, Reaver, Air: Complete area denial by Land Speeders. Lots of terrain. Could only shoot the odd Land Speeder but not move due to ZOC madness and crazy MW FF and support ranges. Still fun as Siegelord proved to be PITA. Made Reave retreat from his objectives as it was within CC range (!!)

4 game: Dark Angels drop again: winning draw 1:0. Orbital only caused minimal damage. Moved cautiosly with more marshall/move than anything else. Scout screen denied viable drops. I took pains to get it right. Tight game.

game 5: Black Legion drop 2:0, Termies - Oblits - Demon prince - Greater Demon in dreadclaws. Crazy amount of demons. NO WE. 2 Formations bombers and fighters. Drop took out preds with hunters by summoning Keeper of secrets and shooting directly in front of my guns. IW retinue sustained on dropped BTS and killed ALL fearless units (!! sorry Norto !!) and banished Keeper. Surviving broken Termies fled but were mopped up easily. Siegelord massacred tighly packed retinues. Ended early after turn 3 for gentlemen finish as turn 4 would have left me with sth like 4 or 5:0.

Posting this here has the aim to give some insight on IW units and formations that apply to UK as well as to NetEA.

This is what i used:

Incompertus, 3000 POINTS
Iron Warriors (Epic-UK 070414)
==================================================

IRON WARRIORS COMPANY [390]
6 Chaos Space Marines and 2 Havocs, Warsmith (Supreme Commander), 4 Chaos Rhino

DEFILER ASSAULT PACK [275]
4 Defilers

VINDICATOR COMPANY [250]
6 Chaos Vindicators

ARMOURED COMPANY [300]
3 Chaos Predator, 2 Chaos Hunters, Chaos Land Raider

ARMOURED COMPANY [275]
4 Chaos Predator, 2 Chaos Hunters

ARTILLERY BATTERY [275]
4 Chaos Basilisks

CHOSEN [145]
4 Chaos Space Marine Chosen units, 2 Chaos Rhino

CHOSEN [145]
4 Chaos Space Marine Chosen units, 2 Chaos Rhino

CHOSEN [145]
4 Chaos Space Marine Chosen units, 2 Chaos Rhino

SIEGELORD TITAN [800]



We struggled hard to find a workable list. I wanted to have an unkillable BTS that is also able to dish out heavily in shooting. I needed viable scout screens vs drop armies. Was aiming to draw most of the time.


Thoughs in hindsight on UK list:

Basílisks at 275pts. Barely worth their points. even on above average and 2 templates the do no real damage. Stuff is in cover most of the times giniving you 50% hit rate. 4+ save. 25% kill rate in total. Vs moderately spread out formations this is almost non existent. The inly good thing about them is --> easy activation and option for direct fire which i used sometimes. But normally you placed them behind cover with no LOS.
NetEA 325 completely overpriced. Put at 275pts like UK. Barely ok

4 Defilers at 275pts single at 65. fearless and infiltrator is nice. But 4 is ultra flimsy. Lose 1 and the whole show spends 2 turns of shedding BM and shooting is also wasted as well as viable assault option. Every single time those guys sucked. They are simply no threat. Reduce to 250 or add a unit.
NetEA: 6 at 425.. single at 75. No way. No way. no way. Not a viable unlock at this cost. Burns through your activation count.
Suggestion move to 4 units at 250pts.

Vindis at 250pts 6 units. Ok at what they do. But overpriced as comp. Reduce to 225pts. That way they would become a naturtal synergy with defilers and would allow effective builds.

IW comp. Overall good. at 300 a tad bit to expensive. Suggestion--> at 300 Either 4 marines and 4 havocs or at 275 6 marines and 2 havocs with option to upgrade 2 marines to havocs for 25+. This looks cheaper than fair BUT those guys miss demons dearly! make up for it with a bit of better shooting at some tad reduced price and a bitt better ff. It is the only way I say to even remotely compensate the massive advatage of Black Legion Pact retiunues in terms of assault range and resilence.

The ordinatus is just not good for its points. IW are already missing fearless Deathwheels dearly. At least give that damn thing fearless to make it only worth a second glance. In UK it is 25pts cheaper and fearless and still everyone rates it crap and most weak BTS you could possibly have.

One last thing. The list structure is a nightmare to work with.. loosen up on the assault section. Please move scouts to support to at least give the option of a more flexible build. It blocks like verything atm and would makes this list so much more workable (with no demons chosen are too expensive btw, so a move to support would be fair only).

atm IW are rated as weakest Chaos list with no real workable synergies throughout the english tournament scene

I declare this bazaar open ;D


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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V3.1 (final version)
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:30 pm 
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We're waiting for steve54 to come back for the approval vote. If he votes it through Amiger84 will likely put together some playtest changes for 2020, I'm sharing your post with him.

I'd like to know the reason behind the UKs Basilisk pricing, at 275 they seem way better than Whirlwinds.

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V3.1 (final version)
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:31 pm 
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Dave wrote:
I'd like to know the reason behind the UKs Basilisk pricing, at 275 they seem way better than Whirlwinds.

The range is obviously good, but they break sooooo much more easily than TSKNF Whirlwinds...

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V3.1 (final version)
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:34 pm 
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Dave wrote:
I'd like to know the reason behind the UKs Basilisk pricing, at 275 they seem way better than Whirlwinds.


The pricing compared to whirlwinds is due to 4 reasons.

1. the mentioned missing ATSKNF. They break easily and if they do they get wiped easily. No coming back. SM are so rediciusly sturdy when it comes to that.

2. Strategy 4 whereas SM 5

3. At 325pt no one would consider it as an option as it practically kills effective list build by knocking the activation count down by 1 as compared to 275. Think about Supreme Commander.

4. They missing demons in IW. The list needs to somehow compensate this extreme deficit. There needs to be some pts bonus on the compensators as they are blocking one activation and can only deal with one enemy formation at a time. Whereas 13 demonic pacts and 13 lesser demons or 11 and a greater demon (which would be the offpay for 325pts) can be used widely for any formation and gives an substantial boost to assault range, effectiveness and resilence. Assaults are the one mayor game winning mechanism in epic. Shooting is second class in comoarison. For that reason alone they actually should be even cheaper than 275pts.

Generally, IW is lacking massively by not having access to demons and Deathwheels. The core formations are only mediocre at least, the assault unlock rate is really bad (and the good stuff you need is all there) and the ranged support artillery is overpriced.

The theme is really nice, but it should be playable not only for draw as well. I gave my suggestions for toning into something that's not completely outclassed by black legion. I hope some of the reasoning is sensible :)


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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V3.1 (final version)
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:31 pm 
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Graf_Spee wrote:
Generally, IW is lacking massively by not having access to demons and Deathwheels. The core formations are only mediocre at least, the assault unlock rate is really bad (and the good stuff you need is all there) and the ranged support artillery is overpriced.

The theme is really nice, but it should be playable not only for draw as well. I gave my suggestions for toning into something that's not completely outclassed by black legion. I hope some of the reasoning is sensible :)


Your critique of the list is certainly not lost, and won’t be ignored!

Candidly, I’d like to see some revision to the v3.1 list, but we had a better chance of getting it approved in its current form, stable as it’s been for a few years now. If/when it makes it past the approval vote, I’ll definitely be looking into reasonable playtest changes for 2020.

I’m hesitant to make sweeping reorganizations to the list just yet, but I could see playtesting some incremental pricing adjustments for starters. There’s potentially room to squeeze in some useful upgrades or fit in alternate unit construction.

I have to say, at this point my gaming lists at 3000 points have really crystallized around two basilisk batteries, a cruiser, and a turn two drop pod assault made up of Dreadnoughts and Chosen. It’s hard to want to take Defilers, Raptors, or a Siege Hammer formation in a lot of situations. The latter could see some love and some redesign.

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V3.1 (final version)
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 8:50 am 
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I agree.

It is not so much critique in itself as more or less condensed input from 2 month of hard discussion, preparation and playing world championship with IW and exchanging with top players about it.

Again, I used the UK list.

For starters the pricing could be reconsidered.

I hassle a bit with your logic of 2 drops as you only have one retain. A good player will use that against you. First by screening vitals secondly by making your second drop useless. That said I love dropping fearless dreads because it is so much fun. But in a tournament without demons it is a bit random luck.


I think creating a real synergy with the core formations is always a valid approach. Otherwise they are just seen as necessary evil to unlock, whereas they should be you mainstay and workhorse, as in BL.

Vindicators and Defilers go together very nicely. Both walker, vindis for doubling, prepping, support. Defilers as fearless infiltrators for carrying out the assault. But if you go for a combination of 3 of them it becomes a hassle with a good activation count. A thing that could work is reducing defilers to 4 units and price drop but of course making the use of upgrading by additional defilers a very valid one. The other easy thing to give a good amount of flexibility to the list is moving chosen to support section. It will decluster the list so nicely and allow for many more different builds. The overall thoughts and experiences on basilisks I have stated already. But a tiny change to defiler unit count per formation and shift of chosen would do wonders already.

Cheers and a nice weekend


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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V3.1 (final version)
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:02 pm 
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Graf_Spee wrote:
I hassle a bit with your logic of 2 drops as you only have one retain. A good player will use that against you. First by screening vitals secondly by making your second drop useless. That said I love dropping fearless dreads because it is so much fun. But in a tournament without demons it is a bit random.


Two drops with one retain can still work pretty well early game if they land together and one has a Leader. It’s not a bad way of landing an overwhelming sledgehammer engagement on one location (particularly with Dreadclaws), and then having the two units separate if. needed to pressure other targets. It’s a way of keeping the activation count up while avoiding sending in a drop BTS ;)

I mean, it certainly doesn’t work all the time, and less well vs. some foes (damned Eldar skimmers), but it’s still an option.


Great feedback all considered though! As far as I can tell, you and I might be the two most active Iron Warriors players that I know of, at least here on Taccoms. I realize there’s variance between the EUK list and the NetE:A list, and probably will be more, but if there’s other folks I should be getting in touch with, let me know?


I was actually considering moving the Siegehammer Company to the Core selections in a future playtest build (NetE:A List). I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone take that unit, ever, but I suspect a 6-strong unit in Dreadclaws with a Dreadnought or two might actually be tempting if it unlocks other options deeper down the force selection list. At 255 points base with Dreadclaws, 365 with two Dreadnoughts, it doesn’t stack up too horribly vs an IW Infantry Company w. Stalker & Rhinos at 390. I wouldn’t spend my one Siege Assault selection on it, but if it opened up access to artillery batteries, Chosen and/or Terminators, Dreadnoughts, Obliterators...

Now, I’ll definitely still take point & unit size adjustment suggestions under advisement.

I’ll wait for Steve54 to come down off his mountain (literally in this case, apparently), and spend some time mulling over feedback before putting together a list of potential 2020 playtest plans before Christmas.

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V3.1 (final version)
PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:40 pm 
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Looking forward to the draft. The easiest way would be to adopt the UK list which is a working thing and adress the minor issues in points and synergy logic that would transform IW from the weakest chaos list to a more competitive one.

As mentioned reducing defilers formation size and the pts of the core formations to make them attractive choices. Also of course the basilisks at 325pts they simply break the theme of list as there is literally no incentive to take them when you can have a 4 Predators with 2 Hunters for 275pts (which btw is the only thing that make them viable in the first place). If basilisks are also at 275 like in UK they become viable as well.


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