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Imperial Guard - first impressions

 Post subject: Imperial Guard - first impressions
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:59 pm 
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Hello fellow gamers.
So tonight I tried out my Guard list.
They are eventually going to morph to Traitor Legion but there's so much to paint I'm pretty sure I can get enough done for Heavy Bolter and then add the more Chaotic elements to make it a Traitor list later.

I also figured out after the fact, reading Dobbsy's reply to the list I sent which I probably should have worded better, that I made a mistake in doing up the list. It's three different upgrades, not three of the same.
But I don't think it would have made any world of difference because of how close I took my BTS to the enemy anyway, so it's not like it played to my advantage or anything - quite the contrary!

Tank Company [BTS] 650pt
1 Leman Russ Vanquisher (which I completely forgot to roll its AT separately for!)
9 Leman Russ
Commissar
+ Tank Squadron 200pt
3 Leman Russ
+ Tank Squadron 200pt
3 Leman Russ
+ Tank Squadron 200pt
3 Leman Russ

Mechanized Infantry 400pt
Commander
Commissar
11 Infantry
7 Chimeras
+ Infantry Platoon with Chimeras 175pt
6 Infantry
3 Chimeras
+ Flak Section 50pt
1 Hydra

Super Heavy Tank Company 500pt
Commissar
1 Shadowsword
2 Baneblades
1 Hydra

Artillery Battery 250pt
3 Manticore

Flak Battery 150pt
3 Hydras

Imperial Guard Fighter Wing 150pt
2 Thunderbolt Fighters

If I thought I could get them in time, I'd buy some Exodus Wars transporters to run an airborne Assault detachment with. But I doubt it given the tourney is three weeks or so away.
The Thunderbolts will stay, they were great for picking on broken units despite flying through various rounds of flak.
The Manticores in a three turn game seemed like a bit of a one trick pony due to their slow firing. Think I'll revert back to Basilisks next game or upgrade to a full artillery company and give that a go. Nine BP would be nice...
The Super Heavy company was untouched, broke a detachment of Falcons, but they were also very slow. I think two separate activations (1 Bane, 1 Shadow) would be better bang for the buck (each with a flak).
The Mechanized engaged three enemy formations, breaking two, and then lost an assault roll which then proceeded to begin to disentegrate them. All said though, they're staying. Maybe even two of them, I really liked how they played (not results wise, that may have been a fluke after all - I genuinely liked how they looked and felt running around the table shooting their assualt cannons and the chimeras firing away....)
The Leman Russ Company, again I'm aware of the list mistake, was used incorrectly by me in this game. A unit with a 75cm range shouldn't have gone halfway up the table on turn two. The result were the opponent's Eldar picked and shot at them then assaulted them and despite having 11 tanks left with 8 blast markers, I discovered a nifty trick today: I thought - as it had never happened before - that a unit broke when the number of blast markers equalled the number of models. It turns out if you lose CC, you break.
Good to know, but not good to be on the receiving end of....

Game went to Shadow from the Monday Knights with his Eldar to whom I surrendered the game at the opening of turn 3. Sometimes playing on is just silly when you know you've lost. I think I could have disintegrated two more of his units, but my blitz would have been his, he broke my BTS and I had few guardsmen, the artillery with its flak and the superheavies only to fight back with. Pretty sure he'd have taken they shall not pass, as well, or failing that my objectives on his side of the board.

Back to the drawing board then, for me (and more attention to be paid to the fine-print of list construction!) but Guard are definitely an army I think I might like.
Marines I'm pretty confident playing with, Eldar I'm far from mastering (don't think I've ever won a single game with them!) but this Guard army I think I can play with more practice.

Anyway, off to bed now.
If any Guard players have advice on how to run an effective list - I'm all ears. There are few models I lack, so can build almost any list.
If any Traitor players on the other hand have successfully run them (in a game with a strong element of chance, so within reason of course!), please also let me know any thoughts.

Have a good week
Steven


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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Guard - first impressions
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 1:17 pm 
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Another 'trick' to learn:- If a broken formation is Broken again, all remaining non-fearless units are destroyed -
A second successfull assault on your BTS could have wiped out all but the commisar . . . . .

6 activations is generally considered a bit low for a '3000' point game. Suggest using some of the upgrades for other activations to bring the list up to 8-9 activations minimum.


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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Guard - first impressions
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:52 pm 
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from experience, I'd say ten minimum, unless you have 9, really solid, really killy activations which you can use to reduce your opponent quite severely.....

I hope you were 'ripple firing' those manticores.. (2 on one turn for 4BP, 1 on the other for 2BP) the difference between 4 and 6BP is negligible (a single extra blast marker) and it means you can hit stuff every turn for some disrupting goodness, I've used them in the past to great effect against eldar, although on balance I prefer basilisks or bombards if you're expecting lots of garrisons (siegers for example!)

if you are going to split the SHT company, it's MUCH better to go for 2 shadowswords, a baneblade company is a great short ranged assault unit, a baneblade on its own isn't great, can be easily avoided and will die against most things in an assault.... unless you were talking two companies of SHTs then ignore me, I have used two SHT companies before and it was painfully slow going.... I had to rely on my warhounds and Reg HQ for objective grabbing.... I've had reasonable success with a company of 2 Baneblades and a shadowsword, but YMMV, I'm looking to replace them with a russ company soon as I'm finding them too slow and not shooty enough

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Guard - first impressions
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:53 pm 
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Thanks for the swift replies fellows
@ kyussinchains
Never heard of ripple firing. Would certainly have been useful and no, I shot his 2 Eldar Revanant titan BTS as my opening shot suppressing one, stalling them for a turn as he failed his initiative roll, and as they were so close to a Falcon formation these also found themselves losing a tank and then failing their initiative roll. Nice work, but still not a game changer and not something I'd be confident pulling off again. Can you ripple fire any formation (say an artillery company with 5 basilisks and four manticores, can 5 basilisks and two manticores fire one turn then the others the next?)
Also good insight into the SHT formation options, I think another company of Leman Russ may also be the way to go for my play style. Maybe a single, separate titan threatener Shadowsword at 200pt would be nice, but you're right they didn't do much on the table and a 45cm march move is very limiting to an assault/defensive stance.

8-10 activations then you say....
Yup, definitely back to the drawing board! I'm going to sift through the forums today and see what lists I can uncover that have been thoroughly commented on, and maybe take hint from there. Especially if people have been kind enough to post AARs after the forum commented on their list constructions.

Regards and thank you
Steven


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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Guard - first impressions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:14 am 
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Reading this - http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=19765 - at the moment and yes, it looks like my two years of collecting random IG units from friends and on ebay to form a 6500pt Steel Legion (all unpainted, they all just went into a box as I picked them up!) was a definite investment.
I'll look into the Epic UK championship page next, thanks for that
:geek
Hydras I loved - it was my first game with IG, so please bear with me if I state the obvious!
I have 11 of them so I can cover a good portion of the board with three protecting the artillery - they stalled the Eldar's attack on the artillery with their twin AP4s alone - and for 50pt they're worthwhile attaching to random elements of the army that can have them

The Mech Infantry engaged three enemy formations of mixed infantry and tanks and broke two - they rocked!
Had I not been such a dumbass and used the tanks appropriately to support the infantry instead of charging in thinking "they're unbreakable, they're tanks, THEY ROCK....no wait, they're now broken and there's only two left. Damn!" I think the mech would really have done even better.

I need to buy Sentinels, they're the only ones I haven't come across so I guess I'm going to end up giving GW a little of my money after all.

Thanks for your useful replies, I'll carry on getting educated on the art of war - IG style.
:spin


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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Guard - first impressions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:47 am 
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I think I have some spare Sentinels, if you're interested.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Guard - first impressions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:47 am 
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Received and replied


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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Guard - first impressions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:39 am 
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Russ companies are great in the steel legion list, two of the most succesful EUK guard players both used them a great deal, the basic idea is to shove it in your opponent's face and force him to deal with it

Riple firing wise, 5 basilisks and 4 manticores would be the same net result as 9 basilisks, you woukd also lose disrupt as every unit must have it, generally 8 basilisks and a manticore works well as you get an extra blast marker when you fire 10BP

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Guard - first impressions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:11 pm 
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@ kyussinchains
That sounds nasty and I have 16 basilisks but only 4 manticores (2 old, 2 new style) so that would work.
What to fire them at, though? I'm trying to lay my hands on sentinels via Dwarf Supreme but I don't think they'll get here in time.


@everyone else, thanks for your replies.
:geek

Love the tactica where it read to put the scout sentinels close enough to avoid teleport units, and I would cover my arty with AA out of principle and because it make sense.
I have 27 pure leman russ tanks so I can make two formations (company plus one leman russ support or whatever you call it for a total of 13 of which one each is a vanquisher - anybody complain if I steal the earthmover jaw from the Marines and stick it on your run-of-the-mill LR? Didn't think so...)
Also have 7 hellhounds and 11 bases of ogryns I've read are not a bad combination
I have 4 Banes - 1 Shadow only - and more than enough infantry to field three full companies (no....reallly....I'be been collecting this list for two years!)

All in all though this was never meant as an IG, it was meant as Traitor Guard. What am I going to do now I have 43 bases of cultists? Jokes aside though I'm never going to get them all pained, and winning a single game with Guard in a state tourney would help keep my painting mojo going.


Please keep the advice coming. I'm collecting it all and would really like to see my pink Imperial Guard do their best before going over to the dark side - assuming they ever will! If they do well enough as IG, I might just start Traitor from scratch. But your posts have been most enlightening and I'm certainly grateful for them
Wish they were unnecessary, but then again why not ask when you don't know - if people asked me how to win at Kings of War, Blitzkrieg/Future War Commander or Panzer War or Spearhead I'd have advice abundant. Epic I'm still getting my head around but it's such an elegant game I know I make it work.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Guard - first impressions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:05 pm 
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I will say that due to the way the BP scales, it's often better to have 2 batteries, less points, more activations and the ability to target two different formations, and in the case of manticores a whole extra template

Basilisks are great also, 3BP every turn is nice and reliable, plus they have a better save, and the ability to direct fire, which IMO makes them a great blitz guard unit. Bombards have their place too, but they're a tad more situational than the other two

Ogryns work well in SHT companies, you can hide them behind the tanks to block enemy line of sight, and the CC macro attacks can give air-assaulters pause, they're also great in infantry garrisons as you can stick them in front to put their excellent saves in the way of shooting and FF attacks, I'm a fan

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Guard - first impressions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:09 pm 
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Rug, I agree they're tricky to use, but Richard Laking, Mark Hargrave and Mark Preston have all had great success with them, I've not had the pleasure of playing the first two, but having faced mark P's guard twice (and taken a kicking both times) and found his russes extremely hard to cope with, I've gained a good deal of respect for them, planning on getting a company for my own army in time for the GT!

Ulani are good although I find the lack of formations like warhounds and mech infantry really dilutes the tanks as they struggle, I've probably beaten the ulani more than any other army, and I don't beat that many!

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Guard - first impressions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:55 pm 
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Leman Russes are very match up dependent. Any army with strong MW assault formation, and a way to get them into base to base is going to be very bad for the Russes.


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