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Ancient Wargaming - requesting advice

 Post subject: Ancient Wargaming - requesting advice
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 3:28 pm 
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Hi all,

I'd like some advice. I want to start playing with an Ancient Wargaming system, but I can't decide which system is best. The main two I'm interested in at the momen are Impetus and Hail Caesar. Which of those is better? Would you recommend other options?

I would like to use the Pendraken 10mm armies, so please bear that in mind when recommending a system (ie. don't recommend a system that is only compatible with 28mm). Also, I have a fair amount of experience with various wargames, so I don't have a problem with a complex system.


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 Post subject: Re: Ancient Wargaming - requesting advice
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 3:46 pm 
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Never played Hail Caesar, played Impetus and its a fun system. Will work well with 10mm armies as it's element based and you don't use individual figures as casualties.

But in truth you need to try a few as they are all different and it's a very personal thing as to what you like or don't with ancient rule sets.


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 Post subject: Re: Ancient Wargaming - requesting advice
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 3:56 pm 
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I also have Impetus but haven't played Hail Caesar. It also depends on what you are looking for in a game. Do you want a fun quick game for fun (where Impetus would work), a more complex tactical game (Field of Glory?) or something historically accurate? Do you want to play only historical match-ups, or do you want to see what happens when the Romans go up against the Egyptian chariots? Are you open to other games (such as Warmaster Ancients)?

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 Post subject: Re: Ancient Wargaming - requesting advice
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 3:58 pm 
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The best advice I can give you is see what other people in your area are playing, game AND scale. The ancient scene around here is mostly dominated by FoG in 15mm.

I haven't played Impetus or Hail Caesar, there are some decent reviews up on TMP and BGG for both of them though. I've played FoG twice and found it a little fiddly. I think WM is a cleaner system.

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 Post subject: Re: Ancient Wargaming - requesting advice
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 6:03 pm 
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CyberShadow wrote:
It also depends on what you are looking for in a game. Do you want a fun quick game for fun (where Impetus would work), a more complex tactical game (Field of Glory?) or something historically accurate? Do you want to play only historical match-ups, or do you want to see what happens when the Romans go up against the Egyptian chariots? Are you open to other games (such as Warmaster Ancients)?


Ok, here are my preferences:

1) A fun game
2) Fairly historically accurate. It doesn't have to be perfect, but I would like it to convey historical themes. I'm also fine with "what if" scenarios, like Persians vs Romans, but not something too far-fetched like Normans vs Egyptians.
3) A cogent tactical system. I would like strategy and tactics to play a major role.


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 Post subject: Re: Ancient Wargaming - requesting advice
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 6:26 pm 
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In London at the CLWC we use FoG, Warmaster Ancients and DBMM. I think you might still get a game or two of DBM if it took your fancy. All have their adherents though I do not think any of them major on Strategy & Tactics, rather they tend to favour the formations using the right tactics against the appropriate enemy.


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 Post subject: Re: Ancient Wargaming - requesting advice
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 10:57 pm 
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Ginger wrote:
In London at the CLWC we use FoG, Warmaster Ancients and DBMM. I think you might still get a game or two of DBM if it took your fancy. All have their adherents though I do not think any of them major on Strategy & Tactics, rather they tend to favour the formations using the right tactics against the appropriate enemy.

About 90/3/7 on the proportions of the rule systems above. All of them are about getting the matchups right on the table.

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 Post subject: Re: Ancient Wargaming - requesting advice
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 7:48 am 
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OK a bit of background, I have been playing ancients since 1971 currently I favour 28mm figures but I also game with 10mm and 6mm figures.

I have tried Impetus and would not play it again, the reason is that it is horribly luck dependant and so that does not cut it for me. Chance yes, has to be there but frequent extreme chances, no thanks.

Hail Caesar, got it but not played it. No not really for me.

DBM, DBA, DBMM all worth a look at. DBA a very short simple game with strange army lists. DBM was the big boy version but got stranger as the new versions came out and similar comment about DBMM.

Field of Glory, popular commercial set, lots of army lists. I think it is over-complex for what it does. Very like Warmaster Ancients but with lots of extra (and IMHO useless) stuff added. I really hate the Points of Advantage system where you compare various tactical advantages to see who has the advantage but often find out that both sides balance out. See other peoples comments;
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=224313

Warmaster Ancients, what I am playing now in 10mm and 6mm. Sadly out of print so you are looking at getting a copy second hand. Typically GW lots if dice and since Rick did the rules, you have to pass a leadership test to move (unless they get really close in which case you can make Initiative moves, saves you from really awful dice).
Why I like it here
http://3vwargames.blogspot.co.uk/2012/0 ... ients.html

Battle report here
http://3vwargames.blogspot.co.uk/2011/0 ... attle.html

And perhaps not really relevant but I am working on a revamp of my own ancient rules the Die Is Cast, game report here
http://3vwargames.blogspot.co.uk/2012/0 ... rules.html

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 Post subject: Re: Ancient Wargaming - requesting advice
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 8:30 am 
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zedeyejoe wrote:
I have tried Impetus and would not play it again, the reason is that it is horribly luck dependant and so that does not cut it for me. Chance yes, has to be there but frequent extreme chances, no thanks.

LOL! Tell me about it! I quit playing the day I rolled 7D6 and all seven dice came up with a 6 (something I had never done in over twenty five years worth of gaming) only to watch my opponent nerf my once in a lifetime throw by rolling a 1, because you always save on a 1.

You could also add that the army lists for Impetus are blatant rip offs of the WRG DBx family of games.

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 Post subject: Re: Ancient Wargaming - requesting advice
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 11:47 am 
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Thaladan wrote:
Ok, here are my preferences:

1) A fun game
2) Fairly historically accurate. It doesn't have to be perfect, but I would like it to convey historical themes. I'm also fine with "what if" scenarios, like Persians vs Romans, but not something too far-fetched like Normans vs Egyptians.
3) A cogent tactical system. I would like strategy and tactics to play a major role.


I would probably look at Armati 2nd Edition myself for this, although that's neither of your options. My Ancients game of choice is Vis Bellica.

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 Post subject: Re: Ancient Wargaming - requesting advice
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 2:34 pm 
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WMA is pants, though. Had 2 demo games and they both involved some super formation outflanking the opposing army then charging from the flank and razing everything. Just pass those tests and the opposing army just sits there being outflanked as if they were blind and deaf. A guy from my club who is an avid DBM and then FOG gamer once went to a WMA competition w/ very little experience of the rules and won the comp - http://www.madaxeman.com/reports/devizes07_5.php

Also the brokenness of the triangle formation - http://www.madaxeman.com/reports/devizes_2009_1.php
The whole start in front and charge in flank while enemy sits like an idiot - http://www.madaxeman.com/reports/devizes_2009_3.php

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 Post subject: Re: Ancient Wargaming - requesting advice
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 3:19 pm 
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I play a lot of WMA (as you might have guessed), triangle formation errataed away, gone.

To hit a flank, starting in front of a unit, you would have to make two moves of course (each requiring passing a leadership check). One move to get round the flank and the other to charge. It can happen but also it can fail. Yes I would expect infantry to be outmanoeuvred by cavalry.

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 Post subject: Re: Ancient Wargaming - requesting advice
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 4:36 pm 
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zedeyejoe wrote:
To hit a flank, starting in front of a unit, you would have to make two moves of course (each requiring passing a leadership check). One move to get round the flank and the other to charge. It can happen but also it can fail. Yes I would expect infantry to be outmanoeuvred by cavalry.


Sure, if there's something in front of the infantry pinning it into battle or if it's an ambush. But in a clear battlefield? Horses are faster than foot but I think a human can turn 90 degrees faster than a horse can run hundreds of metres...

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 Post subject: Re: Ancient Wargaming - requesting advice
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 8:21 pm 
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Thats the nature of IGo UGo games I am afraid (very popular though), the enemy does unto you and then you do unto them.

If it makes it easier think of the infantry on the end of the line turning to face the charge (although it will not make much difference) but turning the entire frontage of the unit to face the charge is lot more than just turning 90 degrees if you think about it.

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 Post subject: Re: Ancient Wargaming - requesting advice
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 2:15 pm 
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It seems to me that HC and WAB are very similar. Is this right? What are the major differences?


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