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Anyone working on Word Bearers/Night Lords?

 Post subject: Anyone working on Word Bearers/Night Lords?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:02 am 
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I'm new, new, new to the forum, having just requested an account after two weeks of lurking, and noticed that while someone seems to be assigned to a Night Lords list, there's not much coming out about it. Of course, they were working on another couples lists, according to what I saw, too, so I'm sure those and real life are the usual suspects in any delay.

Anyway, I'm just wondering how I can help with any list projects around here (see the end of this post for a good possibility), and have always been a fan of the Word Bearers and Night Lords, as the topic title implies. I'll chuck some ideas out here and see what comes of it. I'm not too great on game balance a lot of times, so any help at creating my personal fan lists would be appreciated. I can't really play test anything for a couple months, you see, but I have plenty of time to make a nice graphic design layout.

In my mind, the Word Bearers aren't much different than the official Black Legion list. The biggest change I would make would be erasing the Allegiance rule to an extent so that the marines themselves do not bicker amongst each other. This is easily supportable fluff-wise, as their gene-seed makes them very eager to please. As they summoned demons, other summoning formations nearby would have to pay attention to the pantheons' hatred, of course. Also, instead of the regular Chaos Champion upgrade, they would run with Dark Apostles, who would replace the Lord in that formation. Maybe he'd have a 2d3+1 Augment Summoning ability, and if you wanted to get really stupid, add a Demagogue ability that makes his formation Fearless.

The Night Lords would be a pretty huge diversion, and unlike WH40K, their abilities could really come to light in the Epic scale. To start, limit the hell out of any lumbering fire support - superheavy tanks would be kicked out, while Obliterators and Defilers would be lumped under a single 0-1 upgrade. The same would apply to Predators and Land Raiders. The idea would be a very transportable strike force that would be able to hit and run away, composed of all rhinos, dreadclaws, bikers, or jet packs, but would also probably contain less units per formation for around the same amount of points as one would be used to paying for a normal sized formation. Something like five Night Lords in a Retinue versus the usual eight. To represent their terror tactics, simply engaging an enemy would give their target a blast marker as if they were being shot at. As for daemons, only Raptors would be allowed the option, and Furies would be the only daemon available. Again, to get on the more stupid side of things, maybe there would be something about their long preliminary bombardments like a random enemy formation being hit by a 3BP MW at the start of the game for each unit you bought capable of performing the bombardments (aerospace, that is. This would imply the opposing force having taken prior casualties and recovering at least a little... and they wouldn't receive blast markers for being shot at in this manner, nor for any destroyed or damaged units. Like I said, they recovered, if only mentally).

I dunno. Those are just little things rolling around in the brain right now. Please let me know if I'm misguided!

In the meantime, I'm also a freelance editor that will read over nonprofit things like army lists for free, if I have the time. I've seen some interest out there, but lost the thread I had open when my computer auto-updated while I was at work. Oops. So if you've got something you need prettied up, just shoot me a PM. One more time: free.

Thanks to everyone who participates on these forums, by the way! You guys have really provided a fantastic resource.


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 Post subject: Anyone working on Word Bearers/Night Lords?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:12 am 
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eypyeash

My suggestion would be to take the list and make a variant of your own (much like Hena did with the Death Guard).

I myself am a big supporter of the Chaos lists getting done, and if no-one else does a version that captures the feel of the force, then someone else needs to 'step up'. So I say go for it and save me the time!   :;):

I would always be happy to read and support the list in any way I can   :)  

As for the free editorial ship, PM coming your way for the list in my sig

Cheers....

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 Post subject: Anyone working on Word Bearers/Night Lords?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:47 am 
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Quote: (Hena @ Nov. 24 2009, 19:33 )

I did Death guard only as Lord I isn't here to do it

That's the whole point. An AC that is not AC'ing should not hold a list to ransom per se.

Lists should be given to those who will spend more than a fleeting interest in the subject... this is not an attack on anyopne in particular, more an observation that there appears to be no structure and no accountability for ACs that have somehow been appointed yet have had nothing to do with a list or group of lists in upteen months/years.

The only solution then is to carry on with your own and make it something that others have not.

Sorry Hena, but your excuse does not hold sway. Inevitably you have made a rival list and I thank you for that. You have progressed it further than others. A rival list that improves on a design should be rewarded rather than told that it is in danger of diluting playtests. Playtests of a list that is going nowhere is a waste of time.

Rant over. Sorry for that, but someone had to say it   :shake:

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 Post subject: Anyone working on Word Bearers/Night Lords?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:48 pm 
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In the past i did a rough draft for Night Lords and Word Bearers. They are based on the Black Legion army list but with a Core Formation/Support Formation structure.
The Word Bearers are somehwat more developed as i based them on the novel Dark Apostle.
Night Lords can be found in the attachment.
Word Bearers can be found here: http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums....y247218




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 Post subject: Anyone working on Word Bearers/Night Lords?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:07 pm 
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Quote: (frogbear @ Nov. 24 2009, 10:47 )

That's the whole point. An AC that is not AC'ing should not hold a list to ransom per se.

... this is not an attack on anyopne in particular, more an observation that there appears to be no structure and no accountability for ACs that have somehow been appointed yet have had nothing to do with a list or group of lists in upteen months/years.

We've changed several ACs out over time.  Tau and Nids are both on their third.  CSM and L&D are on their second.  Several variant lists have had new ACs as well.  The only time a list was close to being "held for ransom" was when TRC was in the middle of nowhere, India, and the Siege stuff was put on hold.  That's obviously back in play.

As far as the current Chaos Marine lists, it's not being ignored.  We're working with Lord_I.

Nothing has gone for years unless we hit a point where we made the conscious decision to do so, e.g. Raiders.  Months, as far as I'm concerned, is just fine.  If anything, this forum tends to do too much debating and changes too quickly based on "theoryhammer" instead of on hard playtest results.  Most of the time, it tends to take several months to get enough playtest games to make solid judgments.  It's really up to the AC as to how much they want to respond directly.  If, like Honda, they want to only comment on the general gist of the threads and maintain a "hold the course" position until sufficient game results roll in, that's their prerogative.

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 Post subject: Anyone working on Word Bearers/Night Lords?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:39 pm 
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Quote: (eypyeash @ Nov. 24 2009, 08:02 )

I'm new, new, new to the forum, having just requested an account after two weeks of lurking, and noticed that while someone seems to be assigned to a Night Lords list, there's not much coming out about it.

I don't think anyone is actually "assigned" as part of the NetEA project.  Black Legion did a version of Night Lords a while back that was heavy on Raptors and (iirc) had a minimum formation speed similar to the White Scars Marines.  I don't recall him getting much feedback.  Night Lords have not gotten much love.

There have been several Word Bearers attempts.  As you note, they are basically Black Legion, with access to Dark Apostle Chaplain-equivalents (inspiring) and the ability to summon daemons from any faction.  Sometimes a bit more summoning ability is added.

Quote: 

Anyway, I'm just wondering how I can help with any list projects around here (see the end of this post for a good possibility), and have always been a fan of the Word Bearers and Night Lords, as the topic title implies. I'll chuck some ideas out here and see what comes of it. I'm not too great on game balance a lot of times, so any help at creating my personal fan lists would be appreciated.


Absolutely throw it out there.  We run fan projects, so most of the time, if you step up and take the lead, everyone is content to let you do so.  Knock out a list and people will always comment.  If you post some playtests, so much the better.

==

On your Night Lords ideas...

Fast is good.  If you don't take any heavies at all, however, you'll need to consider how they will deal with an enemy army's big stuff.  How would they take on a Gargant, for instance?

Be careful on formation size.  They don't have TSKNF like the marines, so if you get the formations below about 6 units, they will be very fragile.  You could do something like including transport in the formation instead of making it an option, e.g. Night Lord Retinue - 6 Chaos Marine units, plus 3 Rhinos or Dreadclaws.  I'd consider allowing Land Raiders as transport, too.  Their durability actually helps keep formations mobile, even though they are a bit slower than Rhinos.  Barring that, any sort of extra transport capacity will help keep the formation moving.

Terror Tactics.  I would not have them place BMs.  That's possibly too powerful and fairly unpredictable (could be +2 in an assault, could be nothing).  I might go with some Disrupt weapon options or Inspiring for assault (not really Inspiring in this case, as much as it is causing fear in the enemy).

Just spitballing here... something like a special rule that increases the effectiveness of Crossfire for Night Lords might be good, e.g. they place a bonus BM for the first _2_ units killed.  That would give them a strong weapon, based on fear and confusion, thematic with an emphasis on speed and maneuverability as they have to set up the crossfire, but it is something they have to work for.

Demons.  I like the "Furies only" idea but as it stands daemon summoning is a seldom-used ability.  A fast daemon might change that some, but it might be okay to allow them some other options, like the generic "lesser daemon" and "greater daemon" units in the Red Corsairs list.
===

Edit:  Duh!  BL posted his above.  :;):




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 Post subject: Anyone working on Word Bearers/Night Lords?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 9:29 am 
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Ain't said anything since my first bit, so here's a few days worth of chatter stored up. After I finish up another project I'll likely toss a .pdf up here myself, but would still like input prior.

The terror tactics have been modified, but I'm wondering how broken and/or understandable this is. Paraphrased (the exact wording is on another computer), it reads:

"Night Lords MAY utilize small arms for crossfire attacks. In addition, when your Night Lord formations perform an Engage action and a straight line up to 30cm may be drawn through the target unit to a friendly Night Lords formation, that friendly unit may be called for supporting fire."

I could be severely off my rocker with that one. I messed with the idea of 2 Blasts for the first two crossfire kills as suggested, but unless small arms were OK'd for crossfire, few units would get the bonus - least of all the Raptors. Similarly, I couldn't think of a nice way to Disrupt appropriately.  

In terms of demons, I feel they could be made a lot more viable by sticking with Black Legion's Furies, the AA guys, and allowing them for all units. Generic lessers and greaters could be on the list too, sure.

This is a little goofy, too, but their sorcerors are *probably* supposed to see the worst possible outcome of things. I'm calling them Dark Visionaries or something suitably sad and gothy until I find something giving an official title,but basically, it'd be a replace-the-Lord upgrade that granted an Invulnerable to the formation for an extra bunch of points.

If a unit has dreads, they've gotta have drop pods (or be a garrison). Terminators and marine retinue requires some sort of transport, regardless. Also going ahead with dropping Oblits (little mutation in the genes, too slow) and the assault company stuff is pricier. Still dunno about the Defilers. To take out big stuff, limitations on Land Raiders and Predators are lifted, plus there's always the Navy, Ferals, and I suppose a 0-1 Reaver (also pricier).

Thanks for the input thus far, and also in advance for any given hereafter!


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 Post subject: Anyone working on Word Bearers/Night Lords?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 3:04 pm 
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Quote: 

Dark Visionaries


Is Dark Apostle the phrase you are looking for or is it something similar, but for another kind of character?

If the latter, how about Dark Seer?

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 Post subject: Anyone working on Word Bearers/Night Lords?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 5:26 pm 
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Quote: (Honda @ Nov. 28 2009, 14:04 )

Quote: 

Dark Visionaries


Is Dark Apostle the phrase you are looking for or is it something similar, but for another kind of character?

If the latter, how about Dark Seer?

Nah, that's the one for the Word Bearers, and I don't want to steal it... and in their case, those are just corrupted Chaplains taking a full-on leadership role.


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 Post subject: Anyone working on Word Bearers/Night Lords?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 7:39 am 
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Quote: (Hena @ Nov. 28 2009, 16:49 )

Quote: (eypyeash @ Nov. 28 2009, 10:29 )

"Night Lords MAY utilize small arms for crossfire attacks. In addition, when your Night Lord formations perform an Engage action and a straight line up to 30cm may be drawn through the target unit to a friendly Night Lords formation, that friendly unit may be called for supporting fire."

Ranged weapons aren't a requirement for crossfire. So if I understood the bolded correctly it doesn't actually help anything. The second part does it mean that it can target units which aren't directly involved (eg not within 15cm from enemy in assault at the start of assault)? Third are you trying to copy the crossfire rule for this as it's a bit different (which might cause confusion as they are similar but not same).

Hrm... I thought they were a requirement. The FAQ reads:

"Q: Can the crossfire bonus be used in
an assault?
A: No. It is almost impossible to create
crossfire rules for an assault that can’t be
exploited in some way. I prefer to use the
rules as they are and assume that the
crossfire makes the assault easier because
formations can soften up the defenders by
shooting at them with the crossfire bonus
before the assault goes in, making life
easier for the assaulting troops."

Maybe there was a later errata that reversed this and I haven't stumbled across it! Not too sure, as a lot of the things I click on here end up to be dead links (the server program crash, as I understand it). I assumed small arms weapons were an arbitrary listing in a profile unless they were something like a sorceror's Warp Bolt giving an extra Firefight attack the MW ability, and the Firefight value was the one that "mattered". Hopefully I've been doing this properly.

The intent is to allow a sort of encirclement. Here's an ASCII-style diagram to help out:

NNNNN  < Night Lords on Engage orders
      < 10cm dead space
OOOOO  < Orks
      < 10 cm dead space
NNNNN  < Night Lords on the Ork rear

So typically in the Call For Support bit (1.12.6) of the assault you can only call for guys within 15cm. This would allow one unit of Night Lords to call to the ones on the other side, in this example 20-21cm away, for fire support. This would also automatically allow Crossfire, as you can draw a line through the Orks doing it. So within the context of the encirclement, the fire support range is extended to two times its normal size.

Hopefully that explains it well enough! But if I stick with this rule, I suppose I should make an actual diagram to explain its use...


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 Post subject: Anyone working on Word Bearers/Night Lords?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 7:19 pm 
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Quote: 

That FAQ merely means that crossfire bonuses (extra BM for first kill and -1 to save) doesn't work in assaults.


Right... I guess I don't understand what you're getting at, because this is what I thought it was saying already. So the Night Lords ability would allow them to claim the crossfire bonuses, even in an assault, where small arms are used.


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 Post subject: Anyone working on Word Bearers/Night Lords?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:25 pm 
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Quote: (eypyeash @ Nov. 29 2009, 18:19 )

So the Night Lords ability would allow them to claim the crossfire bonuses, even in an assault, where small arms are used.

That's not really what it says.  At least, I would not have read it that way.  Overall, I am not sure what you are trying to do.

You will need to specify the exact effects rather than just "like crossfire, only in assaults."  The application of hits and BMs in assault is different than in normal shooting, so special rules involving those issues don't line up.  They need to be elaborated separately.

Quote: 

NNNNN  < Night Lords on Engage orders
     < 10cm dead space
OOOOO  < Orks
     < 10 cm dead space
NNNNN  < Night Lords on the Ork rear

So typically in the Call For Support bit (1.12.6) of the assault you can only call for guys within 15cm. This would allow one unit of Night Lords to call to the ones on the other side, in this example 20-21cm away, for fire support.

I think you're misunderstanding the support fire rules.  Support formations don't have to be within 15cm of the allied formation.  They have to be within 15cm of a target unit.  Distance to an allied formation is irrelevant.  In your example the rear Night Lord formation could use support fire as the rules currently are.

The only wrinkle is that support fire has to be allocated to the units involved in the assault.  That's for several reasons but mostly because having support fire at the far end of a formation, without any risk whatsoever to the supporting formation, is unrealistic and gamey.


Basically, we need to know what you're trying to accomplish in order to comment on it meaningfully.

Is your goal -1 armor saves?

Is your goal additional BMs after the assault (when kill BMs are normally applied to the winning formation)?

Is your goal the application of BMs prior to resolution (so as to affect the assault resolution rolls)?

Is your goal to allow support from formations against a target far from the main assault?

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