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Necrons 4.3
Moscovian
 Post subject: Necrons 4.3
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:32 pm 
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See my comments on page 17 of this thread.

To continue a banter with E&C here...  The initiative change would certainly help on this list.  Albeit you played two games with the 4.3 changes but I think both would have been significantly different had your rally chances been cut from 67% to 50%.  Not only would it have affected the outcomes but it should have also affected your decisions that you made.  I'm not convinced Pylons need the change but Monoliths and Obelisks taking this initiative change would certainly benefit the balance of the list.  IMO that supercedes the 'feel' or the 'fluff'.  It certainly has in most lists.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Necrons 4.3
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:36 pm 
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Either that or change initiatives for the infantry formations to 2+ (or maybe even just the Warriors and Flayed Ones).  The 'Borg' example may be partly true, but the Necron are also supposed to feel like the futuristic version of the walking dead and I could easily see them Marshalling successfully each time, but anything past that would mean there is a chance they would not keep up with the changing conditions of the battlefield and therefore take a hold move.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Necrons 4.3
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:42 pm 
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If there are to be a few initiative changes then...

... how about every formation in the entire list goes from 1+ to 2+ initiative.

Whatever Init. rating Necrons have, it should be uniform; I see no fluff justification to have monoliths harder/easier to activate than infantry.




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Chroma
 Post subject: Necrons 4.3
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:28 pm 
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Looking good corey!   :D

You might want to pin this thread...

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Onyx
 Post subject: Necrons 4.3
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:58 am 
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I haven't played Necron yet but I'm half way thru building a Necron army and I would like to have a say in how its going to work ?:glare: .

No changes to the base initiative of the army. Having varying initiatives for different units is frustrating, overly complicated and annoying. KISS (keep it simple silly). 1+ suits the Necrons and should definately stay that way. This is a game and the focus should be on tactics rather than having to check what the initiative rating is for each formation every turn...

Destroyers/Heavy Destroyers - Definately in favour of keeping the stats as they were and changing them to LV's. Keeps them hard hitting and would then make them much easier to deal with (from opponents POV). Then the points could justifiably stay the same.

Pylons - Definately should  be able to claim objectives. I like this way of looking at it - "claiming objectives is more than just holding ground. ?It is an exertion of force." As such, a stonking great WAR ENGINE materialising next to an objective will require you to take action. To ignore it and pretend its presence is in some way not denying territory to the opponent is highly unlikely. They are still relatively easy to supress (2 BM's) but at least the enemy would have to take some action to deal with the Necron presence.

All that said, I would like to thank corey (and the other contributers) for his continued work to get a fair and playable Necron list... Good onya mate.

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tv1013
 Post subject: Necrons 4.3
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:00 am 
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How is a 1+/2+ initiative difficult to remember?  You want difficult, go see the Tyranid list (which is in no way a shot at the Tyranid mods, they've done a great job at toning down all the special rules).

I'm also in favor of changing the Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers to Light Vehicles.  I miss the 2x shots on Heavy Destroyers, and 350 points seems a bit excessive for 6 AT4+ shots.  Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers are darn powerful, but darn fragile in 40K (at least when I've played against them), and I think 2x shots and Light Vehicle could represent that.

Regarding the variable strategy rating -- if I take the Nightbringer, but keep it in reserve to teleport in later, is the army still Strategy 3, or only if it is on the table?
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Chroma
 Post subject: Necrons 4.3
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:43 am 
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(tv1013 @ Oct. 30 2007,01:00)
QUOTE
Regarding the variable strategy rating -- if I take the Nightbringer, but keep it in reserve to teleport in later, is the army still Strategy 3, or only if it is on the table?

Hmmm... I'd say that you count as having a Necron Supreme Commander as long as it hasn't been killed/destroyed, whether it's off board or not... but the rule may need to be re-written to reflect that.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Necrons 4.3
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:22 am 
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tv1013, that is a good question. ?If it were up to me I'd tend to say as long as the SC is alive you should have the 3+.

As for variable initiatives I also don't understand the beef. ?The variable initiative is present in Imperial Guard (when you bring titans), Eldar, Chaos? (last I checked), etc.. ?

And if you need justification for changing the troops initiative, how about this one... ?There are more of them. ?Acting in concert is much more difficult for any group than it is for an individual. ?This is why 3-legged races are slower than normal races. ?This is also why soldiers train. ?And while the Necrons are supposed to blindly follow orders of their gods, they are not robots. ?I can easily foresee battlefield conditions changing too fast for ANY army formation and thus forcing a hold action. ?It isn't like the Necrons are standing statuesque doing nothing on a hold move. ?They can shoot, move, or regroup (thus regenerate).

Corey mentioned on more than one occasion the +1 marshall is to encourage the Necron player toward defensive play. ?What better way to encourage it than to actually have something to apply it to? ?As it stands I have used a marshall maybe two or three times TOTAL in the last dozen games with the Necron because failing a roll with a 2+ initiative (with BMs) is something I am willing to risk. ?Since players won't want their troops offboard they will certainly be more inclined to marshall them with an initiative change.

Onyx, I know this seems like we're trying to neuter the Necrons, but they really need some changes to balance the list. Ex. Even though E&C and I disagree on this point, he acknowledges that the Necron virtually never lose. That's why these changes are being pushed.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Necrons 4.3
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:27 am 
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I agree that Necrons need a big hitting with the nerf bat, but I also believe that initiative values across the board should be the same, as a matter of 'feel'.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Necrons 4.3
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:23 pm 
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(Hena @ Oct. 30 2007,06:43)
QUOTE
I'd say that it counts if its on board. Same as any other special rule. Eg. offboard supreme cannot be used except on his own formation.

This then affects setup and such as well... it's not that supreme commander that has the "special ability" to grant SR3, it's that *having* one grants SR3...

Well, hopefully corey can post and explain his intent.

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Onyx
 Post subject: Necrons 4.3
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:43 pm 
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The differing initiatives of other races really doesn't matter. When playing Guard its pretty easy to look at the big War Engine and know its got a 1+ roll.

Of all the races, the Necrons would have to have a universal initiative (the 'feel' that E&C mentioned).

Forcing rally tests for phased units should already make a huge difference.

"Corey mentioned on more than one occasion the +1 marshall is to encourage the Necron player toward defensive play."

This is from the 4.3 Rules -
"Finally, as the Necron act only in an offensive manner..."
I don't want to be pushed into a defensive style of play whilst using an offensive army.

If the Necron are as powerful as you have stated (and I don't doubt it) then some alterations are called for, but I hope you don't go too far and make them a waste of time (not after spending hours painting the bloomin things ?:) ).

Hopefully I'll get a few games in with them soon and see what all the fuss is about.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Necrons 4.3
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:01 pm 
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Black, gunbolt metal, goblin green on their little lasrifles.  Even I can paint a nice looking Necron army in less than an hour! :)

I understand your concerns on the changes but I wouldn't worry too much though.  Look at all the changes the Eldar went through to help bring them into balance and they were only winning about 62% of the time.  The Necrons are winning about 95% of the time (and I'm being conservative) so we could arm them all with wiffle bats and they'd still do pretty well.

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