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[OLD!] Tyranids 8.4
Chroma
 Post subject: [OLD!] Tyranids 8.4
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 4:59 pm 
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Okay, even though I'm tending to an ill wife, I've put together the next Tyranid evolution.

Rules Changes

With the help of Dave, Hena, and Markconz, a lot of extra words have been cut out of the special rules, and I've streamlined them a bit as well. (And they fit on one page!)

Tyranid Swarms

Tightened up, the "phases" of use more clearly defined, "going to ground" removed completely as an extraneous concept. ?Changed "synapse range" to "control range"... just too many "synapse"s in there!  Swarm re-organization happens in the End Phase.

Instinctive

Can now take Engage or Hold actions. ?Lose all non-fearless units if they lose an assault. ?Swarms that lose their Synapse creatures automatically become instinctive. ?Are not affected by Blast markers.

Relentless

Trimmed and tuned.

Voracious

Still the same.

Regeneration

Trimmed and tuned.

Spawning

"Love drops" are gone. ?Base spawning points are based on the actual Synapse creatures present in the swarm, giving a specific number of spawn points (Well, except for the Dom). ?Variable additional spawn points are generated by various conditions. ?Spawning is still a Rally test. ?Some other trimming/tuning.

Unit Changes

Lesser Synapse is now gone.

Greater Synapse is just "Synapse Node", no teleport and can garrison.

Hive Tyrant is now RA4+ (RA5+ with wings)

Dactylis is range 30cm

Hierodules are now Brood (9).

Term/Horms are now disposable

Some cosmetic weapon re-naming as well.

Army List Changes

Independent swarms are the same, added "Brood Nest" objective replacement that acts as a local spawn boost.

Synapse Swarms now consist of Synapse Groups and specific "Brood Groups" that are assigned to them at the start of the game.

Every two "Common Brood Groups" allows you to purchace one "Uncommon Brood Group" without recourse to percentages. ?Point values are changed for many types.

*Whew* I think that's about it for now.

Please chew up, digest, and vomit forth your comments, questions, and criticisms!

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [OLD!] Tyranids 8.4
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:12 pm 
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I like the look of this version enough that I'm going to start playtesting Tyranids again.

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Hojyn
 Post subject: [OLD!] Tyranids 8.4
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:29 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Sep. 22 2007,19:12)
QUOTE
I like the look of this version enough that I'm going to start playtesting Tyranids again.

Yes, I really like the look of it too. Lots of good ideas in there.

Now if only I could find someone to play(test) against... ?:(

EDIT: Re-read the new rules, a few comments:

- Perhaps the "Relentless" paragraph should come before the "Instinctive" paragraph : it's only logical as Relentless explains how swarms become instinctive and Instinctive does not even mention the word "relentless".

- "Instinctive" paragraph : is the first sentence "Such creatures are considered to be instinctive" really necessary?

The more I read those new rules, the more I like them!  :)
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Dave
 Post subject: [OLD!] Tyranids 8.4
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:52 pm 
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Sorry Chroma, I appreciate the work you put into this but I prefer what Markconz had here for the special rules:

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/cgi-bin....=10598;

With regards to the spawning and unit selection.  I liked the previous versions better too.




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Chroma
 Post subject: [OLD!] Tyranids 8.4
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:56 pm 
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(Hojyn @ Sep. 22 2007,19:29)
QUOTE
- Perhaps the "Relentless" paragraph should come before the "Instinctive" paragraph : it's only logical as Relentless explains how swarms become instinctive and Instinctive does not even mention the word "relentless".

Instinctive is something distinct from "Relentless" in that a creature can be instinctive without having fought or been shot at... the Meiotic Spores come to mind... they are practically mindless and just single-mindedly do one thing, but they haven't been "broken" or such.

Instinctive may also play into units in future Tyranid lists, so it's here for forward compatibility as well.

- "Instinctive" paragraph : is the first sentence "Such creatures are considered to be instinctive" really necessary?
I was trying to duplicate the writing style of the EA rulebook with that.

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Markconz
 Post subject: [OLD!] Tyranids 8.4
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 1:59 am 
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(Hena @ Sep. 22 2007,17:03)
QUOTE
Honestly?

I'm thinking whether or not it would be a good thing to make my own list. My main beef is spawning and unit selection, both which I disagree highly with. First change is pointless and second makes it idioticly predictable and boring.

Then if you really feel that strongly please do make your own list and post it. Put your ideas out there for looting. Also a good way to see how popular they are.  Just make sure it isn't confused with the official list by having adequate disclaimers (Hena's house rule list not the official list or something) and I don't see a problem with it.


Personally I think this is a vast improvement over 8.3.  My own thoughts are mainly just wondering whether or not the  special rules should be further simplified towards the version I have here which do not lose anything important I think.


Main points:

Spawning: I think should be random amounts not specific amounts.  Also I don't think there is any need for a mechanism that requires first a rally roll, then a spawn amount roll or a specific spawn amount. Just a single automatic spawning roll (instead of a rally roll) that takes into account the vagaries of chance effectively does the same thing and is much speedier and more elegant. Furthermore I don't believe a good spawning rule necessitates having different synapse amounts scattered throughout the list.  It is superfluous detail that could be easily discarded without losing anything important. Keep it reasonably random and simple.


Instinctive
Now I know I was the one who actually suggested this -2 on engage/hold idea that shows up in 8.4 and I'm flattered it is included - but I ended up having serious misgivings about it. Number one I don't think the whole more complicated instinctive idea is really flying with people (hence my option to simplify it even further). Number two isn't this going to allow the break-march-engage attack (on a 3+!).  

Synapse Range: I'd just leave it as synpase range as this is the term that has been used forever in 40k and epic and people recognise it. I certainly haven't found it confusing. Also the name implies that it is tied to the synpase creatures which is important. 'Control range' is more confusing I think.


Obviously these are just my first impressions and I need to ponder some more, and obviously I think almost all the changes made are good ones.  Most importantly I'd like to say thanks to Chroma for getting this new version up! :)

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Legion 4
 Post subject: [OLD!] Tyranids 8.4
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:54 am 
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Since I finally started working on my 'Nids, after all these years ... I'm going to have to get these downloaded.  Thanks for the good work Boyz ! :alien:

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Hojyn
 Post subject: [OLD!] Tyranids 8.4
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:21 pm 
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(Chroma @ Sep. 22 2007,22:56)
QUOTE

(Hojyn @ Sep. 22 2007,19:29)
QUOTE
- Perhaps the "Relentless" paragraph should come before the "Instinctive" paragraph : it's only logical as Relentless explains how swarms become instinctive and Instinctive does not even mention the word "relentless".

Instinctive is something distinct from "Relentless" in that a creature can be instinctive without having fought or been shot at... the Meiotic Spores come to mind... they are practically mindless and just single-mindedly do one thing, but they haven't been "broken" or such.

Instinctive may also play into units in future Tyranid lists, so it's here for forward compatibility as well.

Actually, I think you misunderstood me (not surprising given the really confusing sentence I wrote  :p ).

What I meant is this : I read the "Instinctive" paragraph and wondered "Well, where does it say how a swarm becomes instinctive?" ... Then I went on to read the Relentless paragraph and got my explanation, but I just think it would be easier to simply reverse the order of those two paragraphs to avoid this (slight) confusion.

In no way am I suggesting to remove any of these rules or fuse them together. But I'm only nitpicking here, you've really done a great job again.  :)
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woodelf_dave
 Post subject: [OLD!] Tyranids 8.4
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:40 pm 
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While I feel it is a step in the right direction, are we still not in the situation where I attempt a Hold action with an Instinctive unit, fail the test and take a Hold action anyway?
I prefer Markconzs take on this particular part of the rules.
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Chroma
 Post subject: [OLD!] Tyranids 8.4
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:31 am 
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(woodelf_dave @ Sep. 23 2007,18:40)
QUOTE
While I feel it is a step in the right direction, are we still not in the situation where I attempt a Hold action with an Instinctive unit, fail the test and take a Hold action anyway?
I prefer Markconzs take on this particular part of the rules.

"Hold" is always the only option when you fail an activation test, but any formation can, though there's rarely a reason to, choose a "Hold" as a normal action.

So, an instinctive formation could choose to Engage nearby enemies, or Hold... to move or shoot.

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Charad
 Post subject: [OLD!] Tyranids 8.4
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:31 am 
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To allow engages on instictive is good idea, but it would be nice if their withdraw ranges could be limited. Now after losing an assault they can double and engage after that.

Example: Marine terminators teleport and engage hierophant , and they won combat with help of chaplain, then on next activation hiero engages whirlwinds at other end of table. This is one thing I really don't like, the instictive march.




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woodelf_dave
 Post subject: [OLD!] Tyranids 8.4
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:35 pm 
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"Hold" is always the only option when you fail an activation test, but any formation can, though there's rarely a reason to, choose a "Hold" as a normal action


Agreed but I`ve never seen any formation (ever) choose voluntarily to take a Hold action. It is always the default of failing to take another action.
Actually trying to take a Hold action and failing to just Hold anyway just seems completely wrong. Perhaps if they fail their Hold they should get to do nothing.  There needs to be some penalty (more than just the extra BM) for failing an action attempt.

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Chroma
 Post subject: [OLD!] Tyranids 8.4
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:58 pm 
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(woodelf_dave @ Sep. 24 2007,18:35)
QUOTE
There needs to be some penalty (more than just the extra BM) for failing an action attempt.

The penalty is that you don't get to retain, which is the same penalty everyone else gets, in addition to the Blast marker.

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: [OLD!] Tyranids 8.4
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:38 am 
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So, an instinctive formation could choose to Engage nearby enemies, or Hold... to move or shoot

I can see what Chroma is getting at here - but it's a little ugly in its employment/writing.

Basically the instinctive nids get to Engage, OR they get to either shoot or move- not double or advance etc. - which you can only do under a Hold action. So, they can't move AND shoot.

Unfortunately, if they fail a Hold action they can take a hold action.... Chroma maybe re-writing it to say

"...may only take Engage or Hold actions and suffers -2 to any Initiative tests they take. Furthermore, if the chosen Engage or Hold action test is failed, the swarm is subject to an additional -1 to any further initiative tests, may not retain Initiative, and may only perform a Hold action as a result."

It's not beautiful but I think it explains it a little better....

just my 2 cents


On the spawning rules...

Chroma, can we re-word the paragraph

"Spawning allows the Tyranid player to return Brood creature units to play that have been killed, removed from play, or held in reserve. Spawning is treated as a Rally test, with all applicable modifiers, and a successful RALLY TEST generates a number of "spawn points" based on the swarm's Synapse creatures' Synapse (+x) value, along with the following modifiers..."
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