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Regeneration and Multiple Wounds

 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:07 pm 
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Hi,

Here's my take on Regeneration and Multiple Wound rules appearing on pg 28 of NetEpic core rules, cut'n'pasted for clarity:

Special Ability: Regeneration
These units are able to heal themselves. When a regenerating unit fails an Armor Save, turn the model on
its side and treat it as dead. Keep track of how many wounds it has suffered, as the enemy can keep shooting it to
make sure it stays down. Shots against a downed creature hit automatically but armor saves are made normally.
During the End Phase roll a D6 for each wound. On 4+ it?s healed.


Special Ability: Multiple Wounds
Some creatures are so tough that they will not die the first time they fail a saving throw. These creatures are
represented as having multiple wounds. Place a wound marker next to the model each time it fails its armor save.
When it has accumulated as many wound markers as it has wounds the creature is killed and removed as a casualty.
Enemy commanders may continue to pour fire into downed multiple wound creatures and hits are automatic, but
armor saves are made as normal.
Creatures with multiple wounds suffer more damage from Close Combat than from shooting attacks. A
creature with multiple wounds will suffer 1 wound for each point it loses a Close Combat. These creatures may be
close assaulted when down and as such the creature does not roll any dice for determining results, and only receives
its base CAF score.
Some weapons or abilities slay the target outright. In the case of creatures with multiple wounds these
weapons inflict as many wounds as the model has. These wounds may be regenerated unless the attack is an ethereal
psychic attack. In that case they are irrevocably destroyed as these attacks usually do not leave anything behind to
regenerate.

Both rules are confusing.

Regeneration: nothing is explained for HtH. When Bloodletters are killed in HtH, are they removed straight? From the rule description, it looks so by implication ("when a regenerating unit fails an Armor Save" implies a shooting attack since hand-to-hand does not allow a save) but wording could be bettered.
If not, then we have a balance issue, since it's clearly more interesting to have Regeneration than both Multiple Wounds and Regeneration - in the former case you avoid any further damage in HtH while in the latter you may take additional punishment.
"Shots against a downed creature hit automatically but armor saves are made normally." I've read nothing in NetEpic rules regarding automatic hits, not even against buildings. I don't think a regenerating creature should be that easy to hit (it's probably crawling and writheing from pain and certainly not idle).

Multiple Wounds: "Enemy commanders may continue to pour fire into downed multiple wound creatures and hits are automatic, but armor saves are made as normal." This sentence should be removed: it applies to creatures with multiple wounds AND regeneration. Moreover, who are those "enemy commanders" referring to? HQ stands? Elite units? The opposing player(s)? Same remark than above regarding those automatic hits.
"These creatures may be close assaulted when down and as such the creature does not roll any dice for determining results, and only receives its base CAF score." Same remark - applies to Regenerating Multi-Wound creatures, not Multi-Wound ones. Moreover, what happens if the downed creature wins the fight? Are attackers destroyed, or did the creature simply avoided further damage?
"[slaying] wounds may be regenerated unless the attack is an ethereal psychic attack. In that case they are irrevocably destroyed as these attacks usually do not leave anything behind to regenerate." Once again, a reference to regeneration in a paragraph regarding multi-wounds. The sentence should be rewritten and moved to the Regeneration paragraph.

I believe that rules should be consistent so there is no difference between a creature just regenerating, and a multiple Wounds / Regenerating creature with just one wound but hey, that's just me.  :D

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 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:14 am 
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Hi!

Didn't we go through this before? Maybe zap will remember.

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 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 1:25 pm 
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It's basically sorted in the Tyranid list IMO, but we didn't touch the definitions in the Core Rules.  They are good points.....I'll have to look at the draft Gold Core Rules to see if these have been cleaned up at all.

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 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 4:47 pm 
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(zap123 @ Sep. 13 2007,13:25)
QUOTE
It's basically sorted in the Tyranid list IMO, but we didn't touch the definitions in the Core Rules.  They are good points.....I'll have to look at the draft Gold Core Rules to see if these have been cleaned up at all.

I'll have a look at Tyranid book then, but I think those should belong to Core rules (there are several regenerating/multi-wound units here and there, for example Khorne Bloodletters IIRC)

I'll try to come up with a new writing in a few hours.

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 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:35 am 
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There aren't any Multi-Wound, Regenerating creatures outside the Tyranid list are there?

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 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:18 am 
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I've read the Tyranid book and I'm not too impressed by the Regeneration paragraph there (in Bio-Titan rules), it's a bit messy and duplicates the one in core rules. A reference to core rules should suffice, providing they are clear enough.

Here is my attempt at rule writing. The wording makes a continuity between regenerating and multi-wound/regenerating creatures: "simple" regenerating creatures simply count has having a wound characteristic of 1. It removes a bunch of inconsistency of current ruleset.

I haven't written it that way, but I also respectfully suggest that downed creatures should be hit with a +1 bonus in shooting and not "automatically". Auto hits are for buildings and such, not a crawling Carnifex.  :glare:

Special Ability: Wounds
Some creatures are so tough that they will not die on the first damage. These are represented as having a wound characteristic.
Against a shooting attack, place a wound marker next to such a model each time it fails its armor save. Creatures with multiple wounds suffer more damage from Close Combat than from shooting attacks. A creature with multiple wounds will suffer 1 wound for each point it loses a Close Combat.
Some weapons or abilities slay the target outright. In the case of creatures with wounds, these weapons inflict as many wounds as the model's wound characteristic.
When a unit has accumulated as many wound markers as its wound characteristic or more, it is destroyed.

Special Ability: Regeneration
These units are able to heal or repair themselves. Unless otherwise stated, They have a wound characteristic of 1. See "Wounds" special ability for the manner wounds are inflicted. A Regenerating unit may never receive more wounds than its wound characteristic from a single attack, whether shooting or close combat. Yet, there is no upper limit to the number of wound markers on a regenerating creature.
When such unit should be destroyed because of cumulative wounds, put it on the side: it is not immediately removed from play but counts as downed and can be further wounded. While downed, the creature cannot move, fire, nor use psychic powers. It is hit automatically by incoming fire and rolls no dice in Close Combat, using only its base CAF. Apart from those differences, shooting and close combat are resolved as usual.
During the End Phase the creature may recover. Roll a D6 for each wound marker and remove it on a roll of 4+. If the number of wound markers remaining is equal or greater than the wound characteristic, then the regenerating creature is finally removed from play; otherwise, it stands up and can resume fighting.
If a regenerating unit is damaged by an ethereal psychic attack, it is irrevocably destroyed as these attacks usually do not leave anything behind to regenerate.

Special Ability: Structure Points and Autorepair
Some units are able to withstand an impressive amount of damage, and even to repair their own structure as regenerating creatures do. Structure Points and Autorepair special abilitiy work exactly the same way than Wounds and Regeneration, but refer to Inorganic units instead.

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 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:30 am 
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(zap123 @ Sep. 14 2007,07:35)
QUOTE
There aren't any Multi-Wound, Regenerating creatures outside the Tyranid list are there?

I think you are right but nonetheless Multi-Wound and Regenerating ability should work together gracefully, no matter the book they appear in.

In other words, I don't think we should have a third rule paragraph related to Multi-Wound / Regenerating creatures in the Tyranid book.

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 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 9:02 am 
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Looks good. Just 2 points :


(Kotrin @ Sep. 14 2007,08:18)
QUOTE
I haven't written it that way, but I also respectfully suggest that downed creatures should be hit with a +1 bonus in shooting and not "automatically". Auto hits are for buildings and such, not a crawling Carnifex. ?:glare:
As shooting at Praetorians (huge, slowly moving) gives no bonus, I wouldn't give any when shooting at downed models either. In my opinion, the To-Hit roll also contains some "Out of ammo", "Wait a minut, I've a rock in my shoe" and "why shooting again, sergent ? it's already dead !" results.
But if regenerating creatures are that annoying, it will be a good reason for this +1 tohit/automatic. As I didn't play with/against tyranids yet I have no opinion.

During the End Phase the creature may recover. Roll a D6 for each wound marker and remove it on a roll of 4+.
It has been discussed that only wounds inflicted during the current turn can be regenerated. After one try, they become permanent.

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 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 9:29 am 
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No problem to me if we remove all shooting bonus on a downed creature (after all, why not giving the same to-hit bonus against static artillery?). But I'm not for a single regeneration attempt for each wound, as it makes book-keeping more complicated (you have to remember for each wound if it was inflicted this turn or not) and severely decreases the usefulness of regenerating creatures in the first place.

I've played with and against Tyranids a lot and believe me, if you are only allowed one regeneration attempt Bio-Titans are all dead by turn 2 against a shooty army.

The rule does not appear this way from NetEpic downloads. Where can I find latest incarnation of the rules?





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 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:21 am 
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Hi Kotrin,

this was discussed there and there

Important points are quite lost between replies, but I think all importants points are in the first link.

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 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:38 am 
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I agree it will be more complicated, but discussions here that Bio-titans are overpowered with the current rules.


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 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:55 am 
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Threads read, thanks for the link.

It seems a very recent decision, and I beg to disagree. To me, Tyranid Bio-Titans are far from indestructible - you just need to address them differently than, say, Imperium ones. New players are usually trying to kill them with a single shot in the head like Warlords, but it does not work, simply because you need a natural 6 to inflict any critical damage this way. It's much more efficient to shoot the legs, you have half a chance of a critical, and then good chances to to slow down the titan and even to half his CAF. It can then be easily finished off in CC.

In CC, it's also possible to kill a Tyranid Titan. Close combat head, chaos tail, chainfist do wonders - in fact, everything giving some bonus to CAF. Bio-Titans are capped at +14, a warlord can easily beat that, even against a tentacle-equipped bio-titan. The +10 of the Hierodule is even less impressive. Every point of difference in combat result will result in a wound. As usual, destroying a Leg in CC will ensure victory next turn at worst, but you can go for head or thorax damage tables for a quicker kill if the Titan already sustained some wounds.

For those lacking a dedicated CC titan, a ball and chain can also do wonders since it's very possible to half the titan CAF just before combat begins!

Maybe I should have written a Tactica-Vs-Bio-Titans instead of letting people change core rules because they can't find tactics to deal with Bio-Titans...  :;):





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 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 11:07 am 
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(Ulmo @ Sep. 14 2007,10:38)
QUOTE
I agree it will be more complicated, but discussions here that Bio-titans are overpowered with the current rules.

Bio-Titans are not overpowered, or if they are, not more than other items from other races - from an Imperial Guard Centurio Ordinatus to a fully-fledged Squat Land Train.

To me, the problem is that if we neuter Bio-Titans Tyranid list loses much of its variety, since the list does not have much to offer beyond assault infantry.  :(

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 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:13 am 
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(Kotrin @ Sep. 14 2007,10:55)
QUOTE
Threads read, thanks for the link.

It seems a very recent decision, and I beg to disagree. To me, Tyranid Bio-Titans are far from indestructible - you just need to address them differently than, say, Imperium ones. New players are usually trying to kill them with a single shot in the head like Warlords, but it does not work, simply because you need a natural 6 to inflict any critical damage this way. It's much more efficient to shoot the legs, you have half a chance of a critical, and then good chances to to slow down the titan and even to half his CAF. It can then be easily finished off in CC.

In CC, it's also possible to kill a Tyranid Titan. Close combat head, chaos tail, chainfist do wonders - in fact, everything giving some bonus to CAF. Bio-Titans are capped at +14, a warlord can easily beat that, even against a tentacle-equipped bio-titan. The +10 of the Hierodule is even less impressive. Every point of difference in combat result will result in a wound. As usual, destroying a Leg in CC will ensure victory next turn at worst, but you can go for head or thorax damage tables for a quicker kill if the Titan already sustained some wounds.

For those lacking a dedicated CC titan, a ball and chain can also do wonders since it's very possible to half the titan CAF just before combat begins!

Maybe I should have written a Tactica-Vs-Bio-Titans instead of letting people change core rules because they can't find tactics to deal with Bio-Titans... ?:;):

As someone who has played against them a lot recently, I beg to differ pretty strongly with your assessment. ?Bio Titans, and most particularly the Heirophant are very, very overpowered in the NetEpic rules as they stood at version 5. ?I did the maths before in one of the previous threads and wont bother to repeat it in full, but a Heirophant is about 2.5 times harder to kill than a Warlord at far less cost. ?A simple version using Falcons, no scatter, shooting at Heirophants Legs and Warlords Reactor, and an average damage roll of 3 shows 21 Falcons will statistically kill a Warlord, and it would require 48 Falcons to kill a Heirophant! ?Factor in its' awesome Close Combat ability with the vastly improved defenses titans get in close combat and you have a clearly unbalanced piece. ?

Yeah, sure some armies can configure their own Close Combat titan to have some chance at killing one (a pair of Slashers with dual Ripper Fists and a Snapper also do fairly well), but a lot of armies have no chance. ?I don't think the introduced changes "neuter" bio-titans but merely make them slightly easier to kill. ?The introduced changes would make no difference to the above (clearly artificial) scenario for instance. ?If we swapped the Falcons for Prism Cannon (Pen +1) the Warlord is still dead after 20, but the Heirophant drops down to "only" 39 Prism Cannon.





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 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:19 am 
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Hi!

I have to agree with Zap since thats my experience with them too. They needed a little tone down, since while they should be tough, they need to be able to be dealt with realistically by other army lists. GW never did a good job with them when introduced, we have down a lot for them, especially playtesting, has shown that bio-titans need a little "tweaking".

Then again as is the way with netepic, we'll see how these modifications fare and reassess them at a later date.

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