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Thoughts on Swordwind

 Post subject: Thoughts on Swordwind
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2005 7:57 pm 
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Hi!

One thing I have often never seen portrayed in epic is the "shoot and scoot" doctrine that is vital for artillery survivability. Dont know why, it would be a simple enough game mechanic to incorporate in almost any rules and would make artillery less static and involve better planning.

Also epic has mobile artillery like whirlwinds and yet there is no real advantage to using it. In fact lots of versions of epic make static artillery much more powerful and thus attractive and mobile artillery weaker and less attractive. Strange.

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 Post subject: Thoughts on Swordwind
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2005 8:59 pm 
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I agree with this. I've always wondered why in most GW games systems you can't shoot and then move. It is totally realistic to lay down some fire and then pull back. That is impossible to do in 40k for instance. Then again, I prefer moving by alternating units as well, but I think it makes it a better chess game but being able to do as much as you can with your units as possible.

I know this conversation seems to be about artillery mostly, but just have a squad fire a couple of shots off, and run behind a building, only to regroup and wait for the enemy to turn the corner I see in real life and should be in game systems.

GW isn't the only culprit here, a lot of gaming systems do it. The most recent that I found that doesn't is Mechwarrior and Star Wars Miniatures. In Star Wars Miniatures, being able to fire and then run behind a corner can mean life and death.

And it may seem GW's engines are based on WWII tactics, but I don't see any WWII veterans on their staffs. As a matter of fact, I haven't seen any who have served in the armed forces. They read books and interpret what it should be like like most of us do. The problem is, they seem to develop systems that only go half way. I am beginning to think these games aren't based on WWII, but more like ancient tactics like the Greeks vs the Persians.

And history can be interpreted differently too. And what is recorded isn't always what happened. For example: In the American Revolutionary war, one of the first battles was Bunker Hill, which was actually Breed's Hill. Many paintings and descriptions of the battle show the British lined up in ranks steadily advancing uphill and getting razed by musket fire.

I have read several accounts that the British troops that fought at Bunker Hill weren't the greatest quality, even if the British were the superpower of the time. It it has been argued that the British Troops at Bunker Hill weren't disiplined enough to even stay in the typical formations of ranked lines that we know now. It could help explain how the less experiences Americans, although dug in, were able to force the British back several times, since the British were probably moving up the hill in the shape of a mob, not in absolute fixed ranks.

But I would bet that every wargamer plays that scenerio with the British in fixed ranks. . . and game systems are designed with those theories in mind.

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 Post subject: Thoughts on Swordwind
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2005 6:16 am 
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Well as far as FA goes, it depends on what level of tech you see Epic forces. WWII - can't move and shoot, Futuristic - vis versa !  Or the 3rd option - do what works for you ! :;):

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 Post subject: Thoughts on Swordwind
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2005 2:51 pm 
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Hi!

In heresy, I gave the simple option of making mobile artillery shoot and then move, while conventional artillery may not. I found it to be an easy mechanism to implant. Wonder why GW hasnt done it too.... :;):

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 Post subject: Thoughts on Swordwind
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2005 3:46 pm 
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It took them 10 years to add activation ... we added it on game 1 in '90  :laugh:

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 Post subject: Thoughts on Swordwind
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2005 4:08 pm 
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Hi!

All too true.... :D

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 Post subject: Thoughts on Swordwind
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2005 7:42 am 
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Heresy is an amazing game. I have been contemplating "Det Epic" for years but whatever I come up with is done much better in Heresy so so far I have not bothered to start.  :-:

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 Post subject: Thoughts on Swordwind
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2005 9:14 am 
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So anyone being playing with/against any of the armies in Swordwind yet?

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 Post subject: Thoughts on Swordwind
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2005 12:06 pm 
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Played against the Eldar with my IG at the 3k point level, got my @ss handed to me.  @#$@# Lance and Pulse weapons!  I don't know how to counter the hit and run tactics with the relatively static IG forces.  Course, my force composition probably didnt help much...I took a full Company of Artillery (basilisks) and a Tank Company.  Too many targets for his anti armor weapons... any suggestions there?  

my 2cents,

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 Post subject: Thoughts on Swordwind
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2005 2:33 pm 
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Quote (Mojarn Piett @ 20 2005 May,03:42)
Heresy is an amazing game. I have been contemplating "Det Epic" for years but whatever I come up with is done much better in Heresy so so far I have not bothered to start. ?:-:

Hi!

Once Netepic gold is done I'm moving fully to Heresy to produce a full colored rulebook as well.  :)

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 Post subject: Thoughts on Swordwind
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2005 3:21 pm 
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Quote (iblisdrax @ 20 2005 May,12:06)
Played against the Eldar with my IG at the 3k point level, got my @ss handed to me.  @#$@# Lance and Pulse weapons!  I don't know how to counter the hit and run tactics with the relatively static IG forces.  Course, my force composition probably didnt help much...I took a full Company of Artillery (basilisks) and a Tank Company.  Too many targets for his anti armor weapons... any suggestions there?  

my 2cents,

iblisdrax

Infantry supported with rough riders.  :) Of course, you need a mobile reserve to counter anu breakthroughs.

the above is to be considered purely theoretical musings of a confirmed armchair general who hasn't played a single game of E:A this year...  :;):

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 Post subject: Thoughts on Swordwind
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2005 4:00 pm 
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Yep, I agree w/Mojarn ... need infantry support !  :;):

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 Post subject: Thoughts on Swordwind
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2005 5:09 pm 
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Overwatch.

Basilisks on OW will seriously harm anything coming at them (direct shots and don't forget their bolters) or anyone near them, plus they can hit Eldar popups/hit-and-runners at 120cm.

Russ on OW will shred anything trying to assault them, and again, they can hit Eldar popups out to 75cm.

And, of course, scout formations as screens, but within support distance of the Russ/infantry/SHTs.

"Assault this, ya pointy-eared FREAK!"
:D





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 Post subject: Thoughts on Swordwind
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2005 9:14 pm 
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hmmm....yeah, valid points.  I did have a reinforced mech co in that game that did pretty well for itself against a couple of vyper jetbike detachments (after they trashed the chimeras, of course).  I just hate over using the overwatch tatic, not because it is sound doctrine (cuz it IS against the Eldar) but because it tends to lead to even more static games than the IG are used to already.  However, I wonder what the Eldar player would do should I use lots of overwatch tactics?  Move in with his infantry in an attempt to kick off my overwatched units?

my 2cents,

iblisdrax

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 Post subject: Thoughts on Swordwind
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2005 10:41 pm 
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Possibly, but if they get into support range it's worth shooting them to protect yourself from the support fire in the assault.  If they're not in support range, who cares?

I would also recommend fielding Disrupt artillery in batteries.  With fairly small infantry formations like aspects and bikes, those can put a serious hurt on them.

Incidentally, in some cases it might be better to not fire OW, even if assaulted.  Infantry on OW get a 5+ cover save, but the chances of them doing appreciable damage to an assaulting formation is not that great.  It might be better to keep the armor save for the assault than to fire.  And then you can always use it later if the opportunity presents.

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