Trouble in paradise? |
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stormseer
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Post subject: Trouble in paradise?  Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 9:36 pm |
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Location: Suffolk, UK.
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The Ogre Ninja is just criminal..... 
....not a fan of the rest of the range or the whole idea really- a couple of the warlord figs are pretty cool though.
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nealhunt
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Post subject: Trouble in paradise? Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 10:32 pm |
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| Purestrain |
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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
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Location: Nashville, TN, USA
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Oh, yeah. I almost forgot.
The entire ogre range sucks. I hate nearly all the figs. They have replaced the chaos dwarves as my most-loathed GW line.
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Neal
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primarch
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Post subject: Trouble in paradise? Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 10:52 pm |
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Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
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Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
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Hi!
Neal, you are right about not posting a loss, but reduced revenue. A mistake on my part. Thanks for pointing it out! 
If they lost market share, to who? Warmachine? FoW?
With respect to internet sales, Jimbo and yourself pointed out two "reasons" for pulling internet sales. Protection of IP and helping brick and mortar stores. I consider both of these reasons bogus. The internet, for good or ill, is fast becoming the prime portal for introducing games to new gamers. The US is too large for GW to cover it effectively with their chain of stores. You can live in a state with several GW stores and they could all be hours away, making trips unfeasible. The internet brings all games, including GW to potential customers.
Help brick and mortar stores? Bogus. Any store who "cant cut it" allegedly because the internet is cutting into their sales is usually assigning their own business shortcomings to the internet to shift the blame. I have seen robust stores in the US that have a actual store front AND an internet presence. They do fine. They have adapted and capitalize on both sources of customers. Most retail "whiners" basically wish to eliminate competition so they can continue their poor business techniques that got them in their current bind. Its their poor business sence not the internet that is the problem.
I have yet to hear one store owner, even an anecdotally, saying their sales have increased significantly due to GW's policy. Not even GW can claim that.
The so called research saying that most people were introduced to gaming via a store WAS true, perhaps 5-6 years ago. But today I would bet money that is no longer the case. I have lost count how many new games I have come into contact with via internet. Remember stores have limited space and resources. They stock what sells. Therefore there is little inclination to stock anything but "recognized" brands. So introduction to "new things' is limited. But thats exactly what GW wants. They know that most likely the local store has GW products and little else and the more control the exert on its availability the better they can control consumer access to non-GW brands. The internet foils this, thus their hostility to it.
Have they ever disclosed how, when and with what population sample this "research" was done? To my knowledge no. One thing you learn in Medicine is that research has to be analyzed critically. There are accepted models for this. Data is easily manipulated to make it "say" whatever is convenient. So with lack of proof on their end, their position is not on the most solid ground
The marketplace is simple. Customers want discounts and will buy wherever they can get them. Why else online business like New Wave, with their atrocious service and boderline illegal practices still continue to bloom? Discounts.
People will buy what they want for the lowest price. I used to retail and come from a family that retails for a living. Any retailer who thinks that price is of secondary importance to the majority of customers usually gets into trouble.
Primarch
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iblisdrax
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Post subject: Trouble in paradise? Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 11:01 pm |
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Location: First star to the right, and straight on till morning.
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And all of that could be summed up in GW attempting to implement it's normal (read:UK and Europe) marketing stategies here in the United States. Sorry, don't see it working too well, in my opinion. But, as always, that is just my opinion.
my 2cents,
iblisdrax
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nealhunt
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Post subject: Trouble in paradise? Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 11:39 pm |
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| Purestrain |
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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
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Location: Nashville, TN, USA
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Primarch: I'm not defending it as saying it works or that it was a good idea, just that GW's intent was not malicious as most people seem to imply.
I agree about the brick and mortar stores. They offer stuff that the internet cannot and should be able to compete. The shop up the road from me is going through a slow death, and that's even with regularly sponsored games/game nights/tournaments and a clientele that recognizes they owe a little something to the store for their use of the site. He's losing ground because he is a jerk that would rather sit in front of his computer and play mmorpg's instead of wait on customers. But if you listen to him, it's all the fault of internet discounters.  (and the assistant manager he had who was arrested for pedophilia - but that's probably a legitimate concern)
With respect to the marketing research, I have no idea how it was done. I know very little about the methodologies of such things. Give me a hard science study and I'll work with you, but sociological studies and elaborate statistical analyses of them are beyond my ken. Who knows? Maybe they did just make it up to suit their intended actions. Possibly I have too much good will, but I think their marketing people are at least trying to do a good job and not just fly blind.
As far as losing market share, my experience is that it is going to Warmachine and Confrontation. When you can build a sizable confrontation army for $100 but it takes $250 to build a tournament level GW army it doesn't take long to figure out where people are going. The "Blades and Bolters" club that meets near here hasn't played 40K regularly in 6 months. They've played Battletech and Warmachine, and most of them are collecting Confrontation even though they aren't playing with their rules yet as far as I know.
As I said, I think GW has pushed their elasticity of demand past their point of maximum profit. If they cut prices they could make it up with volume, Volume, VOLUME!!! and increase bottom line profits.
iblisdrax: The problem is that I think it's the people at GWUS who are making the US marketing decisions. There's really no reason they shouldn't be able to see the differences.
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Neal
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primarch
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Post subject: Trouble in paradise? Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 12:10 am |
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Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
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Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
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Hi!
No, the intent is not malicious, in fact what they do is healthy for their business and if I were leading them, I'd be doing the same thing, make profit!
They perhaps just go about it in less than an overtly hostile fashion.
GW wouldnt be the first company that makes "so-so" research to further their aims. In fact thats probably very common in corporate doings. Thing is would the perception or reaction would have been worse if they simply stated that internet discounting was hurting their ability to make business more effectively? I think they should try being more straight forward, since their current less than "straight talk" doesnt seem to work. Sometimes being candid IS good for business.
Warmachine seems to be making big inroads. They have a good product, good prices and a stellar release schedule and reliability. I dont know how they are on the retailer end, but it seems they aare good there too. Confrontation is also a stunning line with an availability which is getter better and better. If SST from Mongoose comes in strong (as it seems it may), then the loss of market share may get worse.
I beleive you are current with your point on "elasticity of demand". I dont think they can count on more price hikes to give them solvency. Higher volume sales better be forthcoming or they can get into trouble in the long run.
Thanks for the thought provoking discussion!
Primarch
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Serps
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Post subject: Trouble in paradise? Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 4:06 am |
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Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 2:47 am
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Location: Sydney, Australia
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Neal's right on the money: GW US results must be seen in the context of a growing US gaming market and at least 2 price hikes by GW during the year (and didn't they just raise prices on some items this month?)
I think that GW (US in particular) needs to reassess which side of the "Margins vs volume" equation it wants to concentrate on. GW has enjoyed (abused?) its near-monopoly position for so long that it is in danger of losing the very network-effect that kept it on top.
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Mojarn Piett
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Post subject: Trouble in paradise? Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:31 am |
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Location: Finland
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| Quote (stormseer @ 27 2005 Jan.,20:36) | The Ogre Ninja is just criminal.....
....not a fan of the rest of the range or the whole idea really- a couple of the warlord figs are pretty cool though. |
They should have stayed as Dogs of War. I mean, Kislev gets only a crappy incomplete armylist to be used as glorious allies of the Empire.
As for "Ogre Ninja"... that's an oxymoron if there ever was one. 
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I don't know and I let who care. -J.S.
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Mojarn Piett
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Post subject: Trouble in paradise? Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:39 am |
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Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 7:35 am
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| Quote (primarch @ 27 2005 Jan.,23:10) | | Warmachine seems to be making big inroads. They have a good product, good prices and a stellar release schedule and reliability. I dont know how they are on the retailer end, but it seems they aare good there too. Confrontation is also a stunning line with an availability which is getter better and better. If SST from Mongoose comes in strong (as it seems it may), then the loss of market share may get worse. |
Don't forget Warzone and Chronopia. Both excellent games with good background.
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I don't know and I let who care. -J.S.
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Jimbo
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Post subject: Trouble in paradise? Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 10:49 am |
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Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:01 pm
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Location: Wessex
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| Quote (stormseer @ 27 2005 Jan.,20:36) | The Ogre Ninja is just criminal.....
....not a fan of the rest of the range or the whole idea really- a couple of the warlord figs are pretty cool though. |
The only model I like is the one on the left of this picture.
image posted for review purposes
The rest well...._________________ Jimbo
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Felix's Gaming Pages Blog
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Jimbo
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Post subject: Trouble in paradise? Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 10:51 am |
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Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:01 pm
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Location: Wessex
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| Quote (primarch @ 27 2005 Jan.,21:52) | | With respect to internet sales, Jimbo and yourself pointed out two "reasons" for pulling internet sales. Protection of IP and helping brick and mortar stores. I consider both of these reasons bogus. The internet, for good or ill, is fast becoming the prime portal for introducing games to new gamers. The US is too large for GW to cover it effectively with their chain of stores. You can live in a state with several GW stores and they could all be hours away, making trips unfeasible. The internet brings all games, including GW to potential customers. |
I agree with this point with Primarch.
The internet is a very powerful tool for any customer.
I think GW's line was not only bogus but a mistake for their sales as well._________________ Jimbo
Felix's Gaming Pages
Felix's Gaming Pages Blog
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primarch
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Post subject: Trouble in paradise? Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 1:56 pm |
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Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
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Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
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Hi!
I have seen posts from some of the owners of the more prominent solely online business like the warstore where this "policy" has made it more diffciult for them to reach the public, but after some adaptation are still selling at their normal levels or better with discounts around 20%.
So it seems GW has NOT curtailed in the least online sales and shopping of their brand and worse has left the gate open for these online retailers to to post alternate games in their storefronts since they cant use GW images.
All in all their internet policy does not have seemed to produced a tangible benefit for them.
Primarch
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wargame_insomniac
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Post subject: Trouble in paradise? Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 3:25 pm |
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| Purestrain |
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Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2004 6:42 pm
Posts: 3305
Location: West Yorkshire, UK
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| Quote (Mojarn Piett @ 28 2005 Jan.,07:31) | | Quote (stormseer @ 27 2005 Jan.,20:36) | The Ogre Ninja is just criminal.....
....not a fan of the rest of the range or the whole idea really- a couple of the warlord figs are pretty cool though. |
They should have stayed as Dogs of War. I mean, Kislev gets only a crappy incomplete armylist to be used as glorious allies of the Empire.
As for "Ogre Ninja"... that's an oxymoron if there ever was one. ? |
I agree- GW sould have done a proper list for Wood Elves, Chaos Dwarves and Kislev before they did the Ogre Kingdoms.
I have to say though that the list does not appear to be as overpowered as I'd initially feared. On of the guys at our gaming club has lost convincingly on both occasions he has played them, against High Elves and Bretonnians respectively.
It may be his generalship or it may be that he is lacking any Gnoblars as skirmish screen but his ogres have been dying in droves.
Also the figures don't look as bad in person as I had feared from looking at the pics in WD. He has painted them a more natural tanned flesh colour rather than that sickly grey that GW studio used, and he has also foregone the childish over use of red paint and gore that the studio smeared over their army.
I like the ninja ogre pose- it is humourously ironic- what with the Neo "come on" gesture.
Still not tempted to buy the army or any of the figures myself, but not as bad as I had first feared.
Cheers
James
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DaltonCalford
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Post subject: Trouble in paradise? Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 3:54 pm |
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Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2004 7:29 pm
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Location: Milton, Ontario, Canada
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Hi Guys,
Some of you have referenced webstores that sell GW product - can someone post a list of links to the stores?
best regards
Dalton
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