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Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2003 4:23 pm
Posts: 789
Location: Tampa, Florida
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Hi guys. ?I don't know if this has been done before, but before Epic A started I sent Jervis a list of what I thought were the pros and cons regarding all the Epic systems. ?I thought it was a pretty good letter and I wish I kept it. ?Anyway, I don't know everything about NetEpic yet, but I thought we all might be interested in maybe making a new edition or something after all that we've learned from out experience with EpicA. ?I don't know where this will lead. ?I would think it would be cool if maybe we came up with a 'Basic' ruleset. ?Not that I to push away from NetEpic, but I was just wondering what would happen if we had a fresh start. ?
This is going to get long, so grab some coffee it you are at work. ?**God knows I do. . . ? **
Adeptus Titanicus / Space Marine
**Pros**
Novel idea. ?Great story, nice presentation. ?Love robots already so it worked for me. ?Space Marine was really good too, but bringing in the other races was just the game I had been waiting for all of my life. ?Loved the rules for Covens, as well as the rest of Chaos. ?Models very nice for their time. ?Detailed rules. ?Interesting concepts. ?Building your own custom Titan a big time plus. ?Loved that small arms couldn't affect armored vehicles. ?Felt like I could do just about anything I wanted and there was a rule for it. ?The Land Raider meant something. ?Probably my favorite system for a drop and go small game on a 3ft by 3ft board.
**Cons**
Clumbersome engine. ?Large games took a long time to resolve. ?Turn sequence using counters for orders was nice at first, but comparing it to later editions it just seemed to slow things down and seemed unnecessary. Didn't like how vehicles turned. ?Morale weird, and too dependent on commanders. ?A lot of dead or useless units, like the Space Marine jetbike or mole mortar, thudd gun, rapier, etc. ?Didn't need 5 varieties of robots either. ?Sometimes close combat took too long to resolve if units kept making saving throws.
Epic Space Marine / Titan Legions
**Pros**
Improved SM1 system. ?Slightly faster gameplay. ?Very easy to choose armies for. ?Nice variety on minis. Loved new units like the Lord of Battles and Eldar Aspect Warriors. ?Loved character units like Chaplins, Warlocks, etc. ?Easy victory point and objective system to decide winner. ?Easy as hell to pick armies and set up. ?Titans easy to arm and easy to keep track of. ?Easy close combat system.
**Cons**
Simplified units didn't always make sense, such a a Chaos Marine stand only having a Missile Launcher while Tactical Space Marines had bolters. ?Just about any model could damage another, regardless of the weapon type. Didn't mind order counters at the time, but today feel they are clumbersome for large games. ?Game could get predictable. ?Titan targeting dice takes up too much game time. ?Too many supplements and rules to keep track of. ?Dumb flyer rules. ?Most anti-aircraft rules, such as the Imperial Hydra, where just lame.
Epic 40,000
**Pros**
Fast game system. ?Pretty nice system for making up detachments (as you can make detachments with leftovers from your bitz box). ?Excellent minis (the best ever actually). ?Like the effect of blast markers. Liked the order dice. ?Loved the rules for War Engines with everything you needed on one page. It all fit in one box! That was great! Liked Epic Firepower magazine. Loved Fate Cards.
**Cons**
Hate drawing counters from a cup to determine initiative. Lousy Gargant and Phantom models. ?Took too long to set up if you were unprepared. ?Blast markers could clutter things. ?Assault phase a little complicating and just didn't feel right. ?Not needing LOS in a firefight, even if seperated by a very high wall, didn't make sense. ? Didn't like Epic Magazine. ?Feels like most games are decided by the 3rd or 4th turn. ?Make a mistake and you are usually dead with little chance to recover. I actually don't mind this, but when the game is normally played with a few detachments, you are in big trouble if one gets hammered.
Epic Armageddon
**Pros**
Easy to choose armies/formations. ?Love upgrades. Like the difference in AT and AP fire. Like crossfire.
**Cons**
God am I sick of hearing about Armageddon. . . Not crazy about turn sequence and stealing the initiative. Hate not being able to split fire. ?Would like to see a bigger impact from special characters like Captains, Farseers, and Chaos Lords. ?Hate not giving point values for older models. ?Units move way too fast. ?Don't like the loss of character in the Orks (but this goes with Orks in general - as in 40k). ?Don't like the rules for War Engines. ?Don't like limiting the varieties of Titans to the models available. ?Don't like metal infantry stands. ?Really don't like trying to capture an entire game of 40k in an assault phase, and having each turn representing 15-30mins. ?Don't like firefights, and prefer to have each stand roll it's own dice to hit.
What I would have like/liked to see
As much as I like each system for what it is, I would have like to seen a mesh of SM1 and Epic40k, with the easy game flow using the Epic40k engine with the detail of the units from SM1. ?
1) Initiative would be decided by a dice roll. ?Each army/race would have it's own strategy rating that would be added to the roll. ?Maybe 0 being the lowest and 3 being the highest. I know this will seem like units with a poor initiative rating will suffer a great deal, but I think there is a great difference between a Space Marine's ability to react to it's surrounding as opposed to the Tyranids. ?I figure with only a +3 roll, an opposing player does get somewhat of a chance to win the initiative.
I would also like to see a supreme commander as a must HQ choice. ?If it was lost then the overall initiative value would be reduced by 1 or so, so show the lack of concise coordination without an HQ unit. ?I wouldn't want to see an army go from a +3 to a +0 if a Space Marine Commander died, since I would expect other officers to step up and hold things together, but not to the extent the commander could. ?I have always felt any army group should have a central commander.
2) Movement Phase. ?Player with initiative can move first or force the opposing player move, as in Epic40k. ?Each player moves all of his units, then the other player. ?I would like to have Titans move in their own phase, and I like the idea that Titans would move before infantry and vehicles NOT BECAUSE THEY ARE FASTER, but being so big they would attract the kind of attention that everything else would react to what they are doing first, before going wherever they want. Also like Epic's special orders as well, as well as Marching and Assaulting moves. ?Infantry and vehicles are free to turn as much as they want, but War Engines move as they do in Epic 40k and in Firepower 1.
3) ?Firing Phase - Each player takes turn firing with their ?Detachments/Titans as in Epic Space Marine and Titan Legions. ?No difference in the types of units here. Any unit can chose it's own target. ?Marching and Assaulting infantry units cannot fire support weapons. ?Units in crossfire do suffer a -1 in their armor save, but there is no -1 or -2 for side and rear shots. Units DO NOT have to be on overwatch to fire support weapons. Don't care about fire arcs except for war engines.
4) ?Assault Phase - Units on Assault orders can make additional move as in Epic40k. ?Units in base to base contact with other units fight in CC. ?No saving throw for losers. ?Not sure what to do with units not in base to base but would be close enough to contribute somehow.
5) ?End Phase. Check victory conditions, etc. New initiative is rolled.
I would model units after SM1, but with the weapon stats included with them, as opposed to a seperate reference sheet. ?I like units like jet bikes in groups of three on a stand, as well as how everything else is mounted in Epic40k. ?I would also like units purchased much the same way as they are in EpicA, a general formation with the ability to upgrade several items. ?
I also would like small detachments for most armies, as I feel the more detachments, the more flexible the game and the more fun it will be. ?I think Tyranids and Orks should only be able to field large formations. ?Imperial Guard can have 2 or three support detachments PER company, not one as in EpicA.
Well, what do you think? Many of these I did pass along to Jervis, but you can see what he ended up deciding on. ?I really like what I've thrown together. Please let me know what you think. ?I know I've left a lot out, but this is just the basics. . .
See ya.
**END OF TRANSMISSION ? **
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