Transport Question |
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Chris
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Post subject: Transport Question  Posted: Sat May 03, 2003 8:47 pm |
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In the IG army list, I want to take a mecanised company and add an upgrade of an Fire Support platoon, which is four stands, and I also want these in Chimera's as well. Now do I buy two Chimera's and put two squads in each, or do I do as it was in Epic 40K and put a single stand in a single Chimera?
Cheers
Chris
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krimsonstarr
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Post subject: Transport Question Posted: Sat May 03, 2003 11:20 pm |
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It's totally up to you. ?You can mount 2 infantry stands in 1 Chimera, or 1 infantry stand in 1 Chimera. ?You'll be "legal" just so long as you don't have more Chimeras then you do infantry units in the formation. ?Hope this helps.
Rich
Epic 40,000: Chronicles of the Long War
http://www.nucleus.com/~richdesn/ChaosWeb/bc.html
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Transport Question Posted: Sun May 04, 2003 4:10 pm |
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Yes, a Chimera can carry 2 stands, so always maximize your transport capabilities. That's what "Mech" is all about, "mobility" ... Grunts in tracks can move faster then Grunts on foot, in most cases, depending on terrain ...
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pixelgeek
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Post subject: Transport Question Posted: Sun May 04, 2003 7:51 pm |
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Chimeras can carry two units so you'd need two to transport the Support upgrade. See the note in the army list regarding this
"These unit?s formations may have Chimera transport vehicles. Each Chimera costs 25 points. You must take
enough Chimera to transport the whole formation if any are taken, but you may not take more than one Chimera
per unit in the formation."
So you could take four Chimeras (up to one per unit in the Support formation) as Rich points out but I'd keep it to two as Chimeras blow up really well and unlike infantry its impossible to get them into cover.
Odds are once battle is joined you'll have extra Chimeras anyway so buying more isn't a good use of points IMO.
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Transport Question Posted: Sun May 04, 2003 10:20 pm |
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All armored vehicles can get cover bonuses as in SM1, SM2 & E40K, you can put them behind low cover, so only the turret is exposed, this called "hull down", and the main weapon can still fire. That's an old rule used in many games not just earlier versions of Epic. Infantry can take cover where many AFVs can't. Like rubble, buildings, etc. If you don't use the cover rules, you're short changing your vehicles. That's the way it works in most games and in the real world. Infantry and tanks spend a lot of time trying to stay under cover to avoid being a statistic ... if you know what I mean ... 
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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pixelgeek
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Post subject: Transport Question Posted: Sun May 04, 2003 11:12 pm |
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| Quote (Legion 4 @ 04 2003 May,14:20) | | All armored vehicles can get cover bonuses as in SM1, SM2 & E40K, |
But since this is the EpicA section of the boards that probably isn't all that useful :-)
You can't get a cover bonus for a vehicle, in EpicA, in anything other than fortifications. So they tend to get "blowed up good" an awful lot more then in the other games in the series (I would expect).
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Tas
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Post subject: Transport Question Posted: Sun May 04, 2003 11:45 pm |
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All very true, especially the bit about having "spares" after the first bout of incoming fire!, but if you spread them out into 4 vehicles, then each vehicle loss reduces the total loss to your force and only 1 HW stand. The other issue is that you are increasing the overall size of your force so it will take more BMs to break you.
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Transport Question Posted: Sun May 04, 2003 11:50 pm |
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I read the rules, too, but it seems to me, that might but something they missed, because like much of the E-A rules, they were still under construction. Either way that might be something to consider. As I have said before, that's why we play a Hybrid rule system, somethings were covered better than others. Based on my experience that is a critical rule omission. But play what works for you ...
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pixelgeek
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Post subject: Transport Question Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 12:36 am |
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| Quote (Tas @ 04 2003 May,15:45) | | The other issue is that you are increasing the overall size of your force so it will take more BMs to break you. |
I'd rather increase the size of the formation by taking a Leman Russ platoon :-)
This happened in a game last week and the Guard formations were damn tough.
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pixelgeek
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Post subject: Transport Question Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 12:38 am |
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| Quote (Legion 4 @ 04 2003 May,15:50) | | I read the rules, too, but it seems to me, that might but something they missed |
Hull down positions are, I think, all that common. Unless you have an elevation difference on your opponent or are in prepared positions.
The fortification rule handles prepared positions and since none of the Epic games ahve, AFAIK, dealt with elevation it seems odd that they'd have hull down rules.
Hull down also seems to be a bit outside the scope of the Epic system doesn't it?
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Transport Question Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 3:45 am |
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Well let's look at Epic and E-A. Epic is a Tactical game, one model = 1 vehicle or a 5 man fire team. ?Let's look at the detail Jervis tried to put in E-A. He says based on his readings of Keegan and Marshal, he developed the "Fire Fight" rules, basically most Infantry battles take place at 300 meters of less. ?The Burst Marker concept, an attempt at replicating the affects of Suppressive Fire. ?The Cross Fire rule, how flanking fire works on the tactical battlefield. ?So what does any tactical commander always look for - Cover & Concealment. Cover makes a target harder to hit because he's behind something that stop projectiles, like a wall. ?Concealment - it won't stop fire, but he can't hit what he can't see, like hiding in the jungle foliage. ?So does
Hull Down and vehicle cover come into a tactical game - I'd say Yes. ?Not to sound pompus, but Jervis read about tactical warfare. ?I did it as an Infantry Officer trained in both Light and Mech Infantry from '79-'90 in various environments - jungle, winter, desert, urban, etc., etc. So we play cover rules for AFVs, it's a simple fix. ?And I'd also say read Keegan, Marshal, Rommel, etc. ?But that's just my opinion, you should play whatever rules you want, I'm not going to tell the =][= ...
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Tas
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Post subject: Transport Question Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 3:57 am |
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| Quote (pixelgeek @ 05 2003 May,09:36) | | Quote (Tas @ 04 2003 May,15:45) | | The other issue is that you are increasing the overall size of your force so it will take more BMs to break you. |
I'd rather increase the size of the formation by taking a Leman Russ platoon :-)
This happened in a game last week and the Guard formations were damn tough. |
Ah yes...so would I! 
But here you can add on 2 vehicles for minimal cost without expending an upgrade option
I read of your tale of Woe on the playtester site PG!
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pixelgeek
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Post subject: Transport Question Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 4:35 am |
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| Quote (Tas @ 04 2003 May,19:57) | | But here you can add on 2 vehicles for minimal cost without expending an upgrade option |
I can see that approach. It is cheaper but aside from transport (which you don't need) it adds less firepower than a tank
You can also do both :-)
I just think that the Chimera is going to be killed easier meaning that you're just adding more possible BMs to the formation whereas a Leman Russ is going to survive a heck of a lot longer.
That said, you can't beat having even more units in the formation if it keeps the formation unbroken for an extra turn.
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pixelgeek
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Post subject: Transport Question Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 4:37 am |
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| Quote (Legion 4 @ 04 2003 May,19:45) | | So we play cover rules for AFVs, it's a simple fix. |
The main reason why I think cover for vehicles is out of the scope of the game is that you typically don't target individual units (despite some whinging about War Engines) but the formation.
So in this sense the idea of taking the differing elevations of a vehicle and the unit firing on it is a bit too micro-scale where the game is very macro-scale.
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Gandalf the Grey
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Post subject: Transport Question Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 4:52 am |
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Well let's look at Epic and E-A. Epic is a Tactical game, one model = 1 vehicle or a 5 man fire team. Let's look at the detail Jervis tried to put in E-A. He says based on his readings of Keegan and Marshal, he developed the "Fire Fight" rules, basically most Infantry battles take place at 300 meters of less. The Burst Marker concept, an attempt at the replicating the affects of Suppressive Fire. The Cross Fire rule, how flanking fire works on the tactical battlefield. So what does any tactical commander always look for - Cover & Concealment. Cover makes a target harder to hit because he's behind something that stop projectiles, like a wall. Concealment - it won't stop fire, but he can't hit what he can't see, like hiding in the jungle foliage. So does
Hull Down and vehicle cover come into a tactical game - I'd say Yes. |
Well said Legion, very well said. So long as a single Leman Russ mini represents a single Leman Russ tank, much of what Jervis is trying to do and get us to ignore just isn't going to happen. If a Leman Russ represented, lets say, 5 Leman Russes, then I could see us ignoring cover and what not. So long as I move one mini at a time, and are concerned where it is on the battlefield as a unit, it is more a tactical game than a strategy game.
I feel like sometimes Jervis is trying to make a 'Command and Conquer' game where you give a general order to a group of units and they go off and battle on their own. Trying to simulate that using minis just doesn't work for me. If Jervis can quote his favorite authors, point one out to me that stated that units couldn't fire at two seperate formations at once. Actually, in doing so, that would mean the unit would be able to distinguish seperate formations in a body of mixed infantry and tanks, which is about as unlikely as you can get.
I think some sort of hull down rule should go into effect, just to give me more to think about as I am moving minis around the board.
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