Abetillo wrote:
It doesn't need to be 9 neither be super cheap That would raise other issues or step onto Ork's feet. For example 4 Thunderbolts for 250-275 or 3 for 200, but it does not matter much, it is another idea to bring to the table. I do not get what are you talking about on the second part. Also, this.
I was not saying I was going to copy the orks use of 9 aircraft, but the current 4 aircraft, at 300 points might have had a points reduction. so you culd fit 3 of them and a spaceship within the 1000 points 1/3 limit for a tournament list.
Abetillo wrote:
It is about having interesting lists that play different from each other, and designed weaknesses are a part of it. Lists with no wekness tend to be dull and boring, and only work for ''munchkining'' purposes. Also, as was put up before, we have to take into account that this is Epic, not WWII and as such that does not apply.
Ver 3 of this list is just a teleporting version of the Dark Eldar army (say munchkin and you will be correct), where the skimmer LV transports have been replaced by AV Skimmer transports that cost more, and still have short/mid ranged weapons. The teleport was one way to get them in close, which the self planetfall also does only you have to plan carefully before the game begins (before armies are even placed down). The Dark Eldar used their WE self planetfall transports in a similar manner (but they cost a lot ot purchase).
Also Epic is modern warefare where they still have man portable ground based AA rockets. I know it is not WWII, that was used as an example to show that even armies from times where they had less techniology thought to equip their drop armies with ground based AA. In fact Epic is in the far future where, even though technology has stunted a little, it is still advance enough to provide ground based man portable AA rockets, and droppable AA platforms.
Plus I am not trying to create an army that that is munchkining other armies, just one that does not have too many weakness, so it performs , okay at tournaments (as it could never be a top tier army without benefits like armour saves for infantry, weapons with ranges over 30cm for most of the force, easy to break because most of the formations (unless you spend heaps of points to add upgrades) they break and die off quickly.
I think 3 weaknesses is more than enough for any army to deal with. Add in reliance on aircraft with a 6+ save for their AA defence, and the army has another disadvantage. Ground based AA can be hidden in a formation, or set up when you drop it to move into terrain to get some measure of protection.
This army does have flavour, a theme, a drop list supported by some advancing forces in valkyries and some taurus and sentinels. It also includes built in weaknesses. I was asked to start this version, only because Ver 3, which still has too many weaknesses, has the potential for spamming of teleporting made it hard to deal with, and that seemed unthematic.
I was specifically asked to replace the mass Teleport with Planet fall or self planetfall. That has been done. I tweeked ita little to give it a personality, a flavour that fits in with its theme. I dropped the high price of the sentinels, as they were about 38 points a sentinel where a penitent engine which counts as an AV not a LV, has infiltrate, fearless, a 4+ save, an invul save, and Flamers a MW on its arms cost only 35 points.
Changed the veterans to Elysian Veterans to make them the close combat element for a formation that can be added individually (0-2). I made the old role of the veterans into the Grey Ghosts, a dedicated sniper scout formation. Limited it to only 1 formation, and dropped rules like infiltratethat did not fit the role of the grey ghost. Yes they got the +1 cover save, and FS to account for their booby traps, but it makes the formation a good garrison. They costs 50 points a model, and can still be wiped out by someone driving up with a Hellhound squadron shooting at them with IC weapons. Or you cuold just use some form of artillery that has tthe IC rule, and they are paste, as they have no armour save. As an option I still left the Scout senitel as an option for garrison, if you did not like the Grey Ghosts.
Comparing them to Dark Eldar and their reliance on aircraft for AA defence. They do not do well when they are faced with armies like AMTL, IG mechanised/armoured/artillery themed, Tau, Necrons (who just do not die, and have that damned living metal), and armies that have lots of opportunities for ground based AA.
I have lost so many games where my 2 squadrons of razorwing fighters and one of void raven FB were wiped out even with their 4+ saves. Dark Eldar aircraft weapons ranges are short as well, and they could not stop Thunderhawk gunships from ground strafing my broken formations, even by sitting my aircraft over my troops (after intercepting and enemy thunderblt squadron), as the tunderhawks had weapons that out ranged mine by over 30cm.
I see a ground based AA even one with a 30cm range as a deterant, and as I have found out, opponents forget they are there, and fly right over them to finish off a broken formation. This army might have a lot of activations, but they come down piece meal, and are wiped out or broken very quickly. The advantage of activations is not really an advantage, if your opponent just keeps breaking your army's unbroken formations, and keeps killing off the broken ones thorugh BMs.