I think we've got two competing ideaologies here, we want to add in all the new 40k toys for a sense of what Tau are really like, yet we want to artificially modify them so they aren't great at firefights so they play a certain way.... I have found the fire warrior formations with the new stats quite effective when used well, they give up some firepower but with the 3rd phase version you want to be within 15cm for maximum shooting effectiveness anyway, in addition they still work really well in a defensive, overwatching role too, but they can engage and support better which I think suits the 'Mont'ka' strategem more effectively, I had the fireblade as a character upgrade which is basically a Shas'el with inspiring for 50pts, it replaces the shas'el upgrade for fire warriors



I have indeed reduced crisis suits to upgrades for fire warriors, instead of taking a stand for the Shas'o, I have given the Shas'o a full profile, like a daemon prince to represent his wearing a battlesuit (3+ Save with an invulnerable)



I quite like the riptide with its current stats, as it's a war engine, maybe it could justify a weapon option? either burst cannon or ion cannon? it would allow a decent mixture in a formation, although I'd say with your suggested stats it would need a points reduction as that isn't as potent as the all-45cm shooting loadout it has currently



I'd consider giving them two lance shots each on the main gun, either AP or AT, that way you have a good replacement for the hammerhead....



(recons) if they have to be in the list, I'd strongly suggest relegating them to pathfinder upgrades, follow the fluff, Vior'la use lots of pathfinders, make them the primary scout force



I suppose, but you lose the modest air assault capacity which was something that made this list distinct from the 3rd phase



good



I think providing you make sure to note that barrages cannot be markerlit and cost it appropriately (not a penny less than 275pts) it fits nicely and provides a new capability



the alternative would be to replace stealthsuits with a ghostkeel formation, it makes the lists more distinct without significant changes, heck you can model a couple of stealthsuits on the base of the ghostkeel if you want



I've got no strong opinions either way



but are they *really* that iconic any more? most games of 40k I see never use them, it's riptide-central, dropping them down to a unit upgrade would be a great way to distinguish the lists without removing anything entirely, also the whole combined arms feel should maybe belong to the 3rd phase list if you feel hammerheads are so central to it?

Seriously I like playing the 3rd phase list, this change alone would make me want to go back to it for some games, especially if you have the stormsurge filling the long range tank hunter role anyway (you could *heresy* proxy your hammerheads as stormsurges.....)



I've got no dog in this fight, I'd happily see it dropped, wasn't the whole 'developing bigger tougher battlesuits' thing because the manta wasn't fit for purpose as a war engine anyway? wouldn't that be the perfect 'old school' unit to have as an exclusive for the 3rd phase? 'hey guys here's a slightly crappy war engine, totes old school'

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I am liking the direction this conversation is heading to and have not much to say for most of it, save:



In my case i prefer Borka's option but with the missiles from crisis instead of those (same damage 45cm range), for BM putting, some extra strategy, and we drop one extra weapon that its almost like one already in, keeping it simpler and neater. As they are now i feel that they have not exactly a role, feels weird them having three big weapons, and also, having all the weapons with the same range is boring to play, just sit at 45cm and rain fire while moving 10cm if necessary, opposite to different ranges which bring risk/benefit into the strategy.

Of course with the point's change that its needed.







It doesn't lose, just lower, modest neither. Orcas are plenty used on Third Phase, usually with Crisis or Broadsides, and its not much in the spirit of Vior'La either, in my opinion.

Take also into account that with Cadre Fireblade, taking Orcas become an stronger option already without the shields.





Yeah, that's true, Kyuss, but the problem with it is that giving artillery that can hit the deployment zone to Tau, it is a new capability so army style changing, so alien to Tau gameplay, that anyone will want at least one in any list, no matter the cost or power, even as a void threat or decoy. I think that the current NetEA ones will be taken even if overpriced at 325-350. Even that much cost will only stop them from being more than one per list, not for them being almost an auto-include. The proof is that no more than one or two has played a game with this list without the artillery Supremacy, but many have played without some of the other new options

The weapon's power or its cost only makes the situation better or worse, but the problem still stays.

And there is also the part that it is only one of the weapons it can have. We can avoid artillery and it still will be a fluffy Supremacy suit. Or the fact that a race with no other artillery units has one of the best artillery units in Epic is completely out of place, even if the cost is well adjusted for its stats. But the biggest reason in my mind is that no one so far has given a reason in this thread to include it, only ''it is on WH40k like that'' or ''i want to have artillery on Tau because they don't have it''.


On the matter of role of the two biggest armours, while the current roles are Ok save the artillery, i think it would be better if giving the role of more static sniper to the Stormsurge (it can even hammer itself on the ground to shoot more) as it is now (probably a point decrease), and let the Surpremacy handle a more general role but focused towards big guys like fluff says, lowering the range of weapons to 45-60cm at most and speed to 20cm. This i intend it to give each armour a more distinct role.
Also it would be more interesting if one of the two dropped the shield, to increase their differences. I have to look it further, but it doesn't seem like Stormsurges have shields in WH40k, at least by default.

For example, Stormsurge with a single long powerful shot and smart missiles as it is (maybe change the TK for MW or Lance like comented but put at 2+ and remove the one-shot nature of the missiles to simplify things out), and Supremacy with several middle range MW shots (the weapon has several cannons in the miniature) (3+/4+ to hit), no missiles, and maybe a lower range TK shot (a Volcano cannon, one of the mightiest land weapons of the Empire, feels too big for a DC3 unit). Also, it doesn't look like the one in WH40k can one-shot a shield-less Warhound size guy, like the one here could do.

To finish, i think that for the final version you should change the stats of the Heavy rail cannon of the Supremacy. Just so it isn't a Volcano cannon. Anything will do.

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For the railcannon stats I just used the heavy railcannon from the manta, I think it fits the list quite well

On the barrage version in my test games I have used it once and it was less than stellar, it adds a new capability to the list but that is balanced by the considered removal of other options (recon spam, hammerheads zipping around, strong ground attacking planes)

But that is just my opinion of course

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Forgot the Manta's was exactly in stats to the Volcano, i thought it was worse. But Manta's is twin linked and Supremacy's is single, so it should be 3+ instead of 2+, not that it matters much for now.

Still feels strange to see a DC8 (Manta, Warlord) weapon on a DC3 guy. Damn GW.

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Apart from the shadowsword?

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Great to see some different parties interested in the further development of the list and plenty of news ideas getting worked over. Maybe we can some wheels on this car after all! Since there's been a few posts on the same topics since I posted, I'll just reply by topic instead of trying to paste everyone's text. Hopefully that'll make it easier to read and digest.

Fire warriors
I like the stats you've proposed in EUK Kyuss. I think it really lends itself to how they could be used. With the reduction of range, you could keep the price at 225. With 50 pt add ons for crisis suits, you can still give the formation some poke. I'll have to play test that range a little bit before I could say I'd support it 100%, but I like how aggressive they could be.

Crisis Suits
See above. I wouldn't mind still seeing this as it's own formation, support not core however, but not something I'd be stuck on. I really like the idea of a Shas'o as being a separate character addition.

Pathfinders
Definitely agree with keeping the 6 units or 4 and 2 devilfish the go to option. Maybe tetras as a 25pt add on if people really want to include the skimmer option or make a larger scout formation? I'd think it'd need a cap at 2 added.

Riptides
I really like where these guys are at. I've also had positive feedback from opponents in feeling these we're well costed. The three shots at 45cm give the Tau a nice aggressive mid range shooting formation that can really punish opponents who are careless in advancing in the open. As with other war engines, I could get behind two weapon options and swapping the ion accelerator for the heavy burst cannon with that proposed stat line. The biggest down side would be that 15cm lose of range, but perhaps that could be boosted?

Orca
I would love for the Orca to get stronger, but other than wanting it to be sturdier, I'm not sure there's the fluff to support a more durable variant. If there is, I'd happily get on board (pun intended) with the Strike buff.

Stormsurge
The general consensus seems to be that the TK should be reserved for the Supremacy, so I can get on board with that. Instead, I would suggest leaving the stats as they are and doing a point drop, possibly to 200, or keeping the points the same and giving it a second MW3+ shot.

Supremacy
I like the idea of having the heavy rail cannon shot priced at 225 or the 3BP at 275. This type of flexibility can let people tailor the load out to what they feel their list needs. As for the missed option, I'm not sure how that would compete with these other two choice and what roll that could play that would lead someone to select it, but I'm not against it per se. I would rather not limit the range of the Supremacy armor for a few reason: 1) with it's appropriately slow speed, it will have greater difficulty bringing the armaments to bear in the appropriate location - the very logos of the Mont'ka battle philosophy. 2) I feel the current riptides stats already, and very effectively, serve the purpose of a mid-range battle suit. 3) From fluff, the supremacy suit is designed to be a massive stationary weapons battery. As such, it needs the range to utilize it's weapons and roll as a snazzy defensive turret.

Ghostkeel
I would rather see this entered as a stand alone formation for cost purposes. Stealth suits can be pricey for a formation, usually in the line of danger, that can break easily and is relatively fragile. Ghostkeels, if running with a 4+RA (thanks for pointing out the size difference Kyuss) add some durability, but you're looking at a formation that is creeping up towards 300pts. Just to spitball, I was thinking something in the 200 - 250 pt range that would be 4 units w the 4+RA, 5+,6+, possibly First strike, markerlight, and maybe shooting AP/AT 5+? They seems to run a variety of weapon loadouts, so the shooting has flexibility on what it reads.

Vespids
While it would be fun to have them, I'm not married to their inclusion. I'll play devil's advocate for why we might want them. They do serve a roll in the list as a sub-200 pt formation in a list, which in it's current hypothetical state, doesn't have any others in that pricing. Additionally, it adds a little more variety to the Support Formations section. If fire warriors, Pathfinders, and riptides all serve as the core formations, that leaves Support as Broadsides, Skysweep, Ghostkeel, Stormsurge, and Supremacy (I know I'm taking some liberties and applying some assumptions, but bear with me.) It's also well established in the fluff that Tau use and fight with other species subjugated to the Greater Good and this gives the chance to follow up on that.

Stepping back to Tau lists as a whole, instead of assigned specific alien races to each list, maybe for 175pts (pulled from 3rd sphere) an army could access either the kroot formation or vespids. This could run into issues with balancing minutiae similar to Chaos demons, but I thought it could be fun to discuss at minimum.

Manta
Manta are used as the primary delivery mechanism for the larger Tau suits, so having one matches with fluff, plus it's such an iconic piece not just for Tau, but I really feel for Epic as a whole at this point. I would call this a back burner issue though. The general consensus from my experience, as recent as Fall In in November, is that the Manta is just over priced, or under gunned. I'd like to discuss giving it a point reduction or some bonus firepower, even if it's a second TK shit to start, just to make it more desirable for it's pricing in the Tau lists. The 5+RA is pretty squishy for that price point even with 8DC and the fire power being put out doesn't feel like it's coming from a 600+pt Titan equivalent. Now I think the armor is ok, and it would match Tau better to look to the points or weapons. Curious about other groups' thoughts on the Manta.

Got a bit wordier there than expected, but thanks for the consideration.

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The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.

I like that suggestion.


Yeah this is also the way I see it. I think the Orca already works, I've used it a lot and I've many others as well. A better unit is of course nice, but I don't think it's needed. The theme for tau has never been a good air assault list and I don't think they need to be better at air transports.




I saw that you based the stats on the breacher teams in 40k. I would be inclined to allow both types. Basically the you can change all (all or nothing) fire warrior units for breacher units. The 4+ FF would be reserved for the breacher units. I think that would reinforce the FW heavy theme of Vior'la by giving some options on how you want them to be used.

If we were to remove the pathfinder upgrade in favor of larger pathfinder formations, then I would like to suggest we add a Firesight marksman unit upgrade for the fire warrior formation. Perhaps something like this;
2 units for + optional devilfish for +75 pts, Inf, 4+ armour (high to represent their stealth capabilities) , CC6+ FF5+ sniper drones AP 5+ 30cm Sniper, notes: markerlights.

You do gain access to markerlights at slightly cheaper price than the skyray or the third phase pathfinder upgrade, but the important coordinate is missing and the units have less attacks than pathfinders.

[/quote]
I'm also in favor of this formation, but I think the recon units should be there at least as an upgrade. Vior'la are supposed to be big on pathfinders as well as firewarriors. The recon skimmers are piloted by pathfinders and iconic to tau in epic so I think removing them entirely is bad thematically.

Manta
Manta are used as the primary delivery mechanism for the larger Tau suits, so having one matches with fluff........

Riptides, stormsurges and supremacys deployed from planetfalling mantas

Where can i order these Mantas



Love the chatter for tau going on. Kinda lost interest in them for a while there.

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I'd always assumed that the big suits - Riptides etc - did not fit in Mantas.
At least not in a combat ready form. But this discussion prompted me to a quick look online:

XV104 Riptide Battlesuits will often be found in combat where the fighting is thickest and will take the brunt of any enemy attack so that the rest of a Tau Hunter Cadre can advance or retreat. XV104s are usually deployed from the Tau transport aircraft called Mantas, where their Jetpacks allow them to descend from high altitudes safely.
Quote from Warhammer 40K wiki

So we'd need to add them to the transport list for a Manta. Take up spaces occupied by vehicles and the Crisis
Suits on the main transport deck? How many in total? How much space left for infantry?

Rapid Insertion Force - occasionally adds a Riptide to a 3-5 Crisis Suit teams (upgrade of 1 to a Crisis Suit cadre?)

Retaliation Cadre - Crisis Suit Cadre, Broadside Group, Riptide Team (3 suits?) all in one "sub-orbital" Manta.

Riptide Wing - NINE Riptides and 18 Shielded Missile Drones. Guess that might require more than one Manta!!? Luckily, . . . .

plenty of lift capacity in the local Colonial Tau!!

Now that's a planetary invasion force!

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The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.

Yeah I've read up a bit on Tau last few days. Manta deployment seems to be something GW is pushing at least fluff wise but also in the rules in 40k to some extent (carchters and Crisis suits have a "manta strike"-rule which is basically a lot like teleport rules).

I guess riptides in a manta makes sense as well. They could probably be added "instead of four vehicles three heavy battlesuits (DC2 suits) may be transported." Or some better wording.

I recently traded for some Tau proxies, what do they use as an equivalent to Titans, if anything?

I guess it depends on what your proxies look like. There's the Manta, which is the original Tau Titan equivalent, but that's a giant planetfalling skimmer.

There also the three giant battle suits: riptides, stormsurge, and supremacy armor. Riptides have good mid-range power, stormsurges have large missile arms and a long cannon on the shoulder, and the supremacy has a few different load outs.

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The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.

I was only having a joke about riptides in a manta. It would end up just being a expensive delivery system.

But i do think the manta could go down in price, better guns or maybe the markerlight increased to 45cm to allow it to stay out of range a little.

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Yeah I don't think it's a paticularly good option for delivery, but still nice to have from a background perspective.

Agree that we need to have a discussion on the price of the Manta. Have never played it because it seems not good enough for what you pay.
We have 4000 points tournament coming up later in the spring I'm hoping to take a Manta to that event to get a better feel for it.