Done!

viewtopic.php?f=95&t=32276

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With all the different kinds of terrain, the far from universal models (unless someone plans to tell me my 1e warhounds are illegal...), all the proxying and differing basing conventions and with all the tournaments played by groups that come together from all over the world, it really seems as though a single unifying and clarifying rule needs to be written.

Two types of terrain are needed (at a minimum); high and low terrain. Then one special rule "tall". High terrain can be infinite height, nothing sees over it, period. Low terrain can be seen over by anything with "tall". Model height, proxy type no longer matters and the precise high/low definitions are a simple and easy discussion to have during the 5-minute warmup.

Then perhaps we can stop having the snark from the victims camp and the snark from the dismissing reports because of LoS rules camp and get on with playing with little men and making pew pew noises like we all actually want to do.

From my many thoughts about terrain in tabletop games (and it seems to be an issue with most!), having 'height classes' always seems to be the winning idea (with variation in how detailed you'd like to go). I think the plethora of scales and the lack of literal/'true' scaling naturally leads to abstractions if you try to model in-universe 'reality'. It also means you can model your miniatures how you like without having to worry about that affecting their gameplay value.

While it might be too in-depth for some people, my humble suggestion would be give each terrain feature a height value and compare it with the unit height value: if it's equal, the target is partially obscured but still visible. If it's bigger than the unit size, it blocks line of sight. If it's smaller than the unit size, it offers no impediment. Small people standing on top of buildings could be as simple as 'add the terrain feature's height to the miniature's height'. I suppose (for consistency) pop-up movements could be considered higher than the obstruction being fired over. I think you would need to use the pop-up rule limitation for things being closer to the terrain than the skimmer, too.

Or one could just use Doomkitten's simplest solution of 'tall' and 'not-tall' I think it's actually a pretty useful one: every time I look at the rules for titans and see 'step over terrain more than 2 cm', I can't help but think of scale issues! That ambiguous issue could easily be incorporated into a 'tall' rule. As I've discussed elsewhere, I think EA doesn't really do big things very well in a number of areas, line of sight included.

Newcastle Legions was running with levels but gave way to the so called australian tlos (which is actually not tlos and is an abstraction). Levels certainly made shadowswords much more powerfull and does tend favour certain shooty pew pew armies
The aus tourney 5 min warm up also include a "counts as" segment to clarify all the height issues.
Cheers
Jim

Would you be able to detail some of these in the survey thread? viewtopic.php?f=95&t=32276

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In Scotland, we copy the English ~(Epic Uk rules).... not because they are right, just because its luring them into a false sense of wisdom.

Far more importantly than all the chat so far, I feel we MUST adopt rule 1 as set in the Australian rules, particularly with regards to the beer drinking. A minimum three pints per tournament will address any discussion about line of sight....

We seem to have to have our most problems at cancon... and cancon is a dry event... coincidence i think not. Cattle assault required the winner of the previous year to skull a round at the start and a point at the start of every game for whoever is on top of the leader board. Skull tesponsibly of course. With a boat race in the middle.
Ill defer to dan or mic on the levels.
Cheers
Jim

Cattle assault - now that's a whole different kind of tournament surely?

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Freudian slip? It is in new south Wales, but it's not a welsh event. Definitely castle assault!
Haha

You're right, a lot of other games use height levels and I've always felt the granularity they offered never felt worthwhile for the fiddliness in remembering that X is level 3 versus the building next which is 5, etc. It does work, but I feel it's a step too complex for too little reward. YMMV. Epic is a clearly abstract game, and getting too involved in the fine minutiae drags it down and away from what it's best at: An abstract representation of many little mans getting blown apart by Void Spinners.

Hey guys, this is all really good, insightful stuff,

But could we take all the talk about new & proposed terrain rules over to Wartrader's thread, that way it's not split over two places


Cheers

Sorry @Elsaurio, too late I realised my mistake Alas, it was probably already too late by the time IJW Wartrader was able to make the new thread (since the start of this one became so focused on terrain)!

Are there any other house rules commonly in use in those barbarian communities who have regular games?

Though ZenithFleet mainly does Epic40K, they might have some interesting feedback if they popped in.

On the point of 'dry' and 'wet' (and definitely not Cymraeg: Cymru Ambeth!) events, I do agree that many 'average' Aussies enjoy a drink and find it makes things less, shall we say, intense. However, as someone who doesn't drink myself, and with lots of colleagues who don't drink, I do see the other side—it can sometimes be tough with those unconscious expectations for non-drinkers who attend. It isn't my event and I wouldn't tell you how to run it anyway but it might be worth considering that 'dry' events can serve a purpose beyond reducing the number of liquor licences you need

Thanks TS. We hold a combo of wet and dry events. Everyone is encouraged to drink responsibly and there are plenty of participants who either dont drink or only have a 1or 2 beers/chandies.
Cheers
Jim

You do also need to consider the size of Australia does hamper people's ability to attend a tournament. So most people don't care if it is wet or dry as they just want to attend throw dice and man dollies around on a table and enjoy time with other like minded people

I think for most people who turn up, this is true: they don't really care what people do so long as it's sensible and a nice time. If you have good tournament attendance, than you don't need to worry about outreach to new players so much.

All I'm saying is that it's easy to sometimes be a bit too 'like-minded' and forget that other people have other ways of doing things: sometimes having that extra little bit of variety can encourage a whole lot more people to get enthusiastic and involved.

Perhaps part of the reason there is so much heated discussion about the Australian tournament scene on here is that people on both sides sometimes forget? I know it's easy to do!

Anyways, it's not my event (so not up to me!) and I'm just providing an alternative viewpoint because my own experiences tell me that Aussies (of all stripes) sometimes forget that not everyone enjoys beer with their pretzels or Biel-Tan against their Space Marines