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Playtest battle report new DE 2017 1.0 vs Vanilla Marines

 Post subject: Playtest battle report new DE 2017 1.0 vs Vanilla Marines
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 7:05 am 
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I built my list to determine if the new ability for Dark Eldar to add up to 3 Barges of Pleasure to a formation that can take transports was a broke or over powered thing. I thought it was and the battle proved I was correct.

My list taken is below:

Kabals
675 Points – Coterie – Archon, 6 Incubi Units, 3 Barges of Pleasure, 2 raiders, 2 Venoms [BTS]
325 Points – Flotilla – Dracon, 5 Ravagers
Partisans
250 Points – Reavers – Succubus, 6 Reaver Units
250 Points – Heavy Barge – 1 Vessel of Pain
250 Points – Heavy Barge – 1 Vessel of Pain
550 points – Wyches – Succubus, 6 Wych Units, 3 Raiders, 3 Barges of Pleasure
Titans and aircraft
500 Points – Titan – 1 Tormentor Titan
200 Points – Razorwings – 2 Razorwings


The list has only 8 activations, and one of those is aircraft. It has 9 War Engines, 6 are attached to formations.

My opponents force

Devastator Detachment 425pts, 4 Devastators, Supreme Commander, Rhinos, Hunter

Terminator Detachment 400pts 4 Terminators, Chaplain

Thunderhawk 200pts

Predator Detachment 300pts Annihilator 4x, Vindicator

Predator Detachment 325pts Annihilator 4x, Hunter

Land Speeder Detachment 200pts, Landspeeder 5x

Land Speeder Detachment 200pts Landspeeder 5x

Scout Detachment 150pts 4 Scouts, Rhinos

Predator Detachment 300pts Annihilator 4x, Vindicator

Warhound Pack 500pts 2 x Warhounds

Here is the set up

Image

Space Marines won every strategy roll, and teleported the terminators in to engage the Tormentor, losing one of their number in the assault, and a second to combat resolution. The Terminators were later destroyed from shooting later in the same turn. They succeeded in taking 2 DC from the Tormentor Titan however.

Throughout the 3 turns the Space Marines had fairly average dice rolls, except a few times they failed to activate or rally formations and he had used his Supreme commanders re-roll already. This only happened to the DE once. My BTS Coterie and Tormentor seemed to be the main formations that were targeted, however the Titan hid and sniped at the enemy, and only move/shoot/moved after the enemy titans and predators near it had activated. I used one of the Vessels of Pain as bait to draw enemy overwatch fire, and bring the Warhounds into assault range for the Tormentor Titan. The SM commander did not fall for this.

I moved the Wyches formation over to the left to support the VOP pair (one of whom died to concentrated enemy fire from the Predators). I moved the Ravager Flotilla near the BTS Coterie, and then had the bike formation shot at by the Thunderhawk gunship who avoided the Tormentors AA range. I intercepted with the Razorwings and between my good rolls and the SM commanders bad rolls he lost the Thawk.

He put a lot of his forces who had longer ranged weaponry on overwatch, and I moved my forced around to pick on those formations with shorter ranges like the land speeders, or relocated to concentrate forces. I tried to get the Warhound titans shields down, and then also reduce the SM commanders activation count down. Over 2 turns using the added fire power from 3 Barges per formation, I slowly destroyed off 2 of the Predator formations, the 2 land speeder formations, the Thunderhawk Gunship, and the Terminators. I had lost a Vessel of Pain, and had some units removed from formations.

This in itself has proved that the DE formations who had Barges added to them, whom I kept in the front line, could absorb enemy fire (rotating the barges with better shields to the front), and then supporting them with other formations for engagements. Strangely engagements did not cause most of the enemies losses. shooting from the Ravagers, Barges of Pleasure, Tormentor Titan, Vessels of Pain and the Razorwings did most of the damage. I used the SM players lack of indirect artillery to my advantage, destroyed his only aircraft, and protected those formations who were vulnerable such as Ravagers and Reaver Jetbikes, by keeping them away from the SM predator and Warhound titan formations.

Normally in a game where DE vs SM, I would not have had the 6 Barges of Pleasure. I would not have been so bold as to tempt enemy overwatch fire like I did, as my force is usually very brittle, and the few War Engines I do have get picked on if I send them out too quickly. I also normally lose the Ravagers and a whole reaver bike formation, and perhaps a vessel of Pain, and half the wyches. This game I lost a single VOP, and some units from 3 other formations.

Here are some photos from the end of turn 3 where I achieved TSNP, T&H and DTF.

Coterie after destroying the last Predator formation. I had planned for them to take the enemy Blitz and BTS next turn.
Image

Reaver Jetbikes holding both objectives in DE half
Image

Tormentor titan holding DE blitz
Image

Wyches and VOP holding both objectives in SM half
Image

BTS Devastators holding Blitz
Image
Scouts
Image

Losses for both sides

Image

Image


My recommendations are to change the DE transport rules to have them replace raiders with Barges of Pleasure with one Barge for every 2 raiders. This will cost a lot of points if you decide to add in extra units as upgrades, as you then have to pay an extra 25 points for additional raiders, before replacing them with Barges at 100 points a barge of pleasure. You can replace your raiders with venoms at 25 points a pair, for any raiders you have.

Where possible you should have no transport spaces empty. You could have a formation with 6 infantry units and 2 barges of pleasure, but not 6 infantry units a raider and 2 barges of pleasure. As my opponent said in our debrief of the test game, having 3 barges of pleasure per infantry formation as transport upgrades, was like having a pair of warhound titans added to the infantry formation for just 300 points. I am sure he will have something to say about the proposed change on wargamer.au when he gets home.

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 Post subject: Re: Playtest battle report new DE 2017 1.0 vs Vanilla Marine
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:15 pm 
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Great stuff Deb! Thanks for the playtest and the game.
Cheers
Jim


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 Post subject: Re: Playtest battle report new DE 2017 1.0 vs Vanilla Marine
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:47 am 
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Thanks for the report

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 Post subject: Re: Playtest battle report new DE 2017 1.0 vs Vanilla Marine
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:03 am 
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JimXII wrote:
Great stuff Deb! Thanks for the playtest and the game.
Cheers
Jim


+1 to the above Deb, much appreciated

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 Post subject: Re: Playtest battle report new DE 2017 1.0 vs Vanilla Marine
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:50 pm 
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Just to add some more comments deb, i think you are right on that the barge spam might be an issue and i could drop it back to max 2 barges and maybe remove the 25 points for raiders and just simplify the transport rule.

As a counter point to your recommendations though, i think the one battle rep speaks more about marines inability to deal with warengins at range then necessarily that there is a problem. Also, as the shadowfields confer obscuration, the marine player could have opted to shoot at the warengine that wasn't obscured. So i don't think it affords the direct advantage of a revolving shield as indicated from your batrep.
But thanks for the batrep.

I got one done tonight with norto so will write it up in the next couple of days.
Cheers
Jim


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 Post subject: Re: Playtest battle report new DE 2017 1.0 vs Vanilla Marine
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:22 am 
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During the battle I made sure that the weaker units were obscured as best I could using terrain and the Barges with active shields. The Barge of Pleasure and the lone Vessel of Pain were killed off from the enemy pouring enough weapons fire in a single round of shooting to bring the WE shields down. He then retained and brought another predator formation or any land speeders that had survived to move in and in to finish it off.

He had 2 Warhounds with Plasma weaponry and mega bolters (perhaps he could have given one an inferno gun). He had about 12 lascannon shots per formation, some hitting on 5s with the shield active, others hotting on 6s.

As to my opponent shooting the weaker transports that did not had shields, my infantry had transferred to the WE during double moves in turn 1, and the SM commander did destroy some of those LVs I had not hidden properly targeting only those units out of cover.

I had the speed to keep away from his overwatch longer range uits, and in turn 1 he actually nearly forced my Titan out of the game early with his Terminators.

In out next game He said he would look at using Eldar, possibly Biel-tan or Iyanden. A skimmer with WE army vs a Skimmer with WE army. Only he will have a triple activation, better weapons ranges, and in some cases better to hits at those ranges.

The guys at Newcastle Legions club said they would like to face off against the army I used against the marines. Perhaps using Tau, AMTL, Orks, etc. I will be up there at the end of March.

Also I was talking to the marine player, via PM this evening, and he mentioned that SM Librarians can force enemy skimmers in base contact to use their CC stat rather than their FF stat, so you can munch them up with your CC MWs. Where is this rule, I can not find it?

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 Post subject: Re: Playtest battle report new DE 2017 1.0 vs Vanilla Marine
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:27 am 
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Deb wrote:
Also I was talking to the marine player, via PM this evening, and he mentioned that SM Librarians can force enemy skimmers in base contact to use their CC stat rather than their FF stat, so you can munch them up with your CC MWs. Where is this rule, I can not find it?


'fraid it doesn't exist

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 Post subject: Re: Playtest battle report new DE 2017 1.0 vs Vanilla Marine
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:16 am 
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well that would certainly make sure librarians get used more!

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 Post subject: Re: Playtest battle report new DE 2017 1.0 vs Vanilla Marine
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:05 pm 
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AS AC I DEMAND MAGIC, errr ... MORE MAGICIAL SPACE MARINE LIBRARIANS!

Yeah Deb that's not a rule anywhere in any book. Politely pass that along to your friend.

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 Post subject: Re: Playtest battle report new DE 2017 1.0 vs Vanilla Marine
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:49 am 
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He PM'd me a reply to my query, it seems it is a thing he would like Librarians to be able to do, so they Librarians will be taken more, and SM will have an answer to skimmer armies.

He is not so happy at the moment with the results of his SM army. They have been beaten a lot in tournaments, even though he placed better than me at CanCon his SM army compared to the Vraksian army I used. I think he is looking to start playing Eldar. I know he has 3D printed off a whole heap of it, and is also looking at other armies to replace is current SM list.

Anyway, I will be looking to test using massed syndicates in both Barges of Pleasure and with Raiders/Venoms. Perhaps they will need some fire power, so I might look at using either 2 Tormentors, or 4 Vessels of Pain as back up for them.

I will have to see which army my mate brings next time. I had thought he was taking Eldar last time.

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 Post subject: Re: Playtest battle report new DE 2017 1.0 vs Vanilla Marine
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:24 am 
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It might be worth him trying different builds of the SM list before replacing them as a race entirely. It looks like a codex marine list built around shooting, not engagements at present – better to build to their strengths not weaknesses. 12 preds is a *lot* of preds! (i mean, i love annihilators too, but …)

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 Post subject: Re: Playtest battle report new DE 2017 1.0 vs Vanilla Marine
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:04 pm 
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Even one formation of Predators is pretty unusual in the UK tournament meta.... can't go wrong with Landspeeders though!!


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 Post subject: Re: Playtest battle report new DE 2017 1.0 vs Vanilla Marine
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:19 pm 
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Hey Deb, your opponent might get on better with the SOI or AOS lists. They're designed around more of that type a force than the Codex list which is referred to as "thunderhawks an warhound a-go-go" in my circles. At a minimum those Vindicators are helping to reduce activations. Actually Codex Marines are one of the most challenging lists depending on cross fire and support fire in engagements. Regardless I really appreciate theses reports. Im especially loving your string attention to the DE. Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Playtest battle report new DE 2017 1.0 vs Vanilla Marine
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:13 am 
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I will keep the reports coming. I am using a list with Kalabite warriors backed up by upgrades units and a mix of Barges, Ravagers and Venoms for transports. I will likely use the Vessels of Pain and Ravagers to provide the ranged fire support I like, and Aircraft for CAP and bombing runs.

As to my mate, others on Wargamer.au have been offering suggestions to him, including myself. I said that SOI and IF lists had some very good options, especially the Imperial fists.

Their use of fortifications with techmarines in Bastions armed with Helios launchers, and also Landraider Achilles that also have the Helios launcher. They also get a cheaper replacement for the Terminators in the Devastator Centurians, and they also get Fellblades to replace those Warhounds. Yes Fellblades are slower, but they still have the 4+ RA, but they get 4DC, get 2 x range 75cm MW3+, backed up by 6 other weapons. These also come out of the marines main section, not the 1/3rd section, so more points can be spent on aircraft.

He is just going through a period where he has lost way more games than he has won, and the last game against my DE and the OP list with the3 6 Barges, 2 VOP and the Titan made him not happy with his SM army. He is looking at 3D printing a new army and had started on both Knights, and Eldar.

I traded him a Warlock Titan I got as part of a complete Eldar army I purchased last year. Since I am building a Sian-Hann army, I can not use it, and I thought it would be a bonus to him. He has done me a lot of favours 3D printing off order counters, damage/shield dice holders, Blast Templates (on stilts), Blast Markers, Helldrakes, Helltalons and Hellblades, without any though of payment.

Hopefully that helps him strengthen his Eldar army. I suggested Iyanden with their large supply of Wraithguard, aspect warriors, wraithlords, and other nasty Eldar units.

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 Post subject: Re: Playtest battle report new DE 2017 1.0 vs Vanilla Marine
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:05 pm 
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yeah keep them coming mate! MORE DE!!! ;D

Codex Marines are really strong once you get it but it's a not an easy list, especially for a beginner. Honestly it took me a good 2-3 years before it fell into place for me (granted I am not a strong competitive player so admittedly I'm just slow like that). It's absolutely not intuitive how to play to their strengths at first.

If you're buddy wants to help out on the AOS list (think marine RA armour list! >:D ) we're really just needing the batreps to push it over. It's solid enough and plays WAY different than all the rest of the marine lists (closer to a more elite Minervan than Codex). I think he might get on swimmingly with it.

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