atension wrote:
While yes they don't have quite as much long range firepower as Steel legion in terms of indirect fire capable units this isn't really a weakness. No other list does really either. They do still have shadowswords, earthshaker platforms, the much debated deathstrike silo, Bombards, Medusa platforms, Macharius tanks, Leman russ and titans... It doesn't really look like they are lacking ranged firepower in the least. Look at Tyranids, Necrons, Codex marines, Most chaos lists (tzeentch and Iron Legion aside), Orks and even Eldar don't have that much.
You'd probably get a better idea of how they compare to most Guard variants by trying to create a few lists. Taking the one Onyx just posted as an example of a decent krieg list, with this new revision they are an army that spends its first 1,525 points to gain 6 heavy bolters and 3 stubbers worth of fire power.
That is uniquely low amongst guard, and since these are the obligatory core formations it forces the list away from long ranged stand offs and towards assault.
atension wrote:
Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
Compared to more recent guard lists like the Minverans, they're more complicated to play and easier to clip, and again lack the many of the best long range firepower units and mobile AA upgrades.
Just because they may be a little more complicated doesn't mean they are worse. They do lack ground AA mobility but thunderbolts are very cheap excellent interceptors. Do you mean they are easier to clip because they don't have the chimers 10cm counter charge only the fat Gorgons?
I agree, I didn't say worse, just more complicated. In fact as a rule the simpler an assault formation is to win with the more it should cost.
What I mean by easier to clip is that they have shorter counter charge range, and at all times have to weigh up whether the infantry should be inside or outside the gorgons. Inside they can be locked in or massacred by AT, Titan Killers or the newly toughened crits, while outside the huge footprint makes them easy to clip, terrible vs templates and barrage and slows the formation down. It's a dilemma that a formation like 10 Minervan Assault tanks doesn't have to deal with.
I am not describing them as weak, it's still a great assault formation, just more complicated to use.
Onyx wrote:
Just to show what's still possible with this list:
Regimental HQ Company + Gorgons + Mortars =625
Infantry Company + Gorgons =475
Infantry Company + Gorgons =475
Heavy Support Battery (2x Hydras 1x Heavy AA platform with free Trojans) =125
Super-Heavy Tank Platoon (Shadowsword) =200
Death Rider Scout Platoon =150
Deathstrike Silo =250
Two Thunderbolt Fighters =150
One Warhound Titan =275
One Warhound Titan =275
3000pts.
That's a good list made with the new revision.
Of the things in the list, the deathstrike is easier to break and easier to kill, the three large formations have increased in cost, lost their mortars, got a worse crit and had 20 infantry drop from CC5+ to CC6+, and the list itself has lost one formation (probably anti air) compared to what we would have faced in the past.
The list is empirically, demonstrably not as powerful as any krieg list we've played before. I hope to see some more playtests and there may well be some more tweaks required, but personally I would now be happy to play against Krieg with any of my other armies.
But at least it looks like everyone agrees it's moving in the right direction.
