The rest of the Unforgiven beg to differ...


Allow me to reiterate and elaborate upon my earlier proposal:



1) The Dark Angels may choose a Hunt for the Fallen. Thus, fluff-respecting Dark Angels players can skip this when fighting Tyranids or Necrons...
2) The enemy player chooses the specific formation. Thus, it won't (necessarily) be an easy target. If the same formation as the BTS is chosen, the suspected Fallen is probably the leader of the enemy forces, and the 2 Goals scored for that formation is completely warranted. And yes, wily enemies with available air transports can fly off the Fallen formation, denying the goal. The Fallen are a cowardly lot, after all. But the formation must start on the table, giving the Dark Angels a fighting chance at a capture.
3) The Dark Angels cannot score the Blitz Goal: They are uninterested in performing a breakthrough or gaining ground, the mission is a manhunt and the other goals aid this: Contain and bottle up the enemy (TSNP), Hold the positions they are after (DTF), Take key positions where the Fallen has left clues to his whereabouts (T&H), Break his minions (BTS) and Capture the target. The Blitz goal is usually a priority for highly mobile armies like marines, so not being able to score this is a significant disadvantage that easily balances having two BTS-like goals.

hey, I have much love for the warthog too, but that plane is a ground attack one and while it can mount sidewinders, it's hardly an interceptor.... if you want to make this plane the A-10 of the epic universe, then it needs its AA capabilities seriously nerfed, like cut down to a single HB at 15cm

Having said that I think the main complaint about the plane has been its ground attacking power (nobody is saying it's a peerless interceptor) and those stats above don't reduce that at all.... I still think 4 shots is too many, especially when they're all pretty powerful.... it would be easier to swallow if it had 4 shots but a couple were AP6+ or AT6+

I'd also be happy with dobbsy's stats of giving the avenger cannon an AA shot and making the missiles AT5+ or something

anyway, I've complained enough, I'll put my money where my mouth is on thursday and play a game with em....

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AoC, I think all my suggestions for the air load out are justified by precedent, as I explained, there is plenty of precedent for weapons having different stats on different mountings and/or units. And likewise precedent for twinned weapons to be one pip worse on AA compared to their AP/AT stat.


Presumably the unit you are using for the precedent for your twin lascannon with AA4+ and 45cm is the marauder? You ask to be shown different stats, well the lightning's dual lascannons are 30cm/AT5+/AA5+ so that's even poorer than the ones we're suggesting. And of course the landing craft's twin lascannons don't have AA at all. Why the variation? Because they are mounted differently, on different types of aircraft, and require different balance. I really do not see this as an issue at all, it's blatantly obvious that stats for weapons on aircraft are not standardised like they are on ground units. Hell, the thunderhawk has different stats for the same weapon on the same unit!

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I'll see your pet Peeve about having the same stats for weapons and units, and raise you my pet peeve (about power creep both in general and specifically about the air game).

[rant mode on]AoC, we are not picking on you in particular, you will see the same comments about aircraft posted over and over again. I think we also agree with you that units and weapons should have the same stats across different lists - unless there is a very good reason. (Aircraft change their weapon load-out to match their mission, so in this respect only their *intrinsic* weapons should be constant).

However, given our common desire to have consistent stats I am slightly puzzled why you are unwilling to consider the E-UK unit and costs for the Nephilim, at least as a starting point. I understand the point that this is a "NetEA" list, but IMO that only applies to the list make-up *not* to the units in particular, which I agree should be consistent across *ALL* lists. [Rant mode off]

Kyuss, when / if you test multiple formations, try 4x pairs of Nephilim at 225 each (900 the lot), put one on CAP and use them to pick on LV where possible (or broken formations obviously). 3x formations of 300 each will work just as well.

aaahhhh CRAP! I meant to quote Jimmy's post and edited instead!!!!! sorry man

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I had a 3k battle with the Dark Angels 3.0 list vs an air assault Biel-Tan list. I tested the list exactly as it is in the PDF, which has nephilim as a trio of the ground attack variant (2x AP3+/AT5+ avenger, but only one AA6+ and one AA5+). No pictures, sorry.

Deathwing + chaplain 400
Deathwing 350
Ravenwing 1 (Land Speeders) 350
Ravenwing 2 (Attack Bikes) 350
Ironwing (executioner) 250
Ironwing (executioner) 250
tactical + grand master + hunter 450
Nephilim 300
Nephilim 300

aspects + autarch + exarch in vampire
aspects+ 2 exarchs in vampire
guardians in vampire
guardians + heavy weapons + support weapons
void spinner
void spinner
falcons + 2 firestorms
falcons + 2 firestorms
6 rangers
6 rangers

Set Up

Marines put their blitz out of cover on the right flank. Eldar put theirs opposite it in woods. Marines put TnH objectived about 40cm apart as far from any cover as possible. Eldar put theirs near cover, 1 near the blitz, another on the other side of the board.

Marines garrison both ravenwing behind hills near mid table. Eldar garrison rangers near their DtF objectives.

Falcons deploy behind cover, both void spinners and guardians deploy in woods on blitz. Tacticals deploy on blitz.

The Dark Angels chose the guardians in vampire for the hunt for the fallen rule (farseers aren't technically characters but this seemed in keeping with the discussion in this thread for what it was supposed to represent).

Turn 1

No teleports. Marines win strategy.

[DA] Nephilim CAP
[DA] Nephilim CAP
[BT] Void Spinner 1 sustains on Tacticals, kill hunter, 4 BM
[BT] Rangers 1 double on Ravenwing (land speeders), kill 1 LS, 2 BM
[DA] Ravenwing (land speeders) double on Falcons 1, kill 1 falcon, 2 BM
[DA] Ironwing 1 attempt to double but fail. They re-roll, moving up to MW range and firing on Void Spinner 2 but only place 1 BM
[BT] Falcons 2 double on Ironwing 2, 2 kills, 3 BM
[DA] Ravenwing (attack bikes) advance on Rangers 2. OW from rangers = 1 hit, saved, 1 BM. Shooting from attack bikes = 2 hits, saved, 1 BM
[BT] Rangers 2 double on Ravenwing (land speeders) in a crossfire with Falcons 1, but score 0 hits, 1 BM
[DA] Ironwing 2 marshal, the remaining tanks can't see Falcons 2 so they move, then remove all 3 BM
[BT] Falcons 1 attempt to marshal but fail, they move slightly (spread out) and remove all BM
[BT] Guardians double in a move-shoot-move manoeuvre towards the Ravenwing (land speeders), firing in a crossfire with Falcons 1. They kill 1 bike, for 3 BM
[DA] (I think) Tacticals attempt to marshal or overwatch but fail, and only get to remove 2 BM.
[BT] Void Spinner 2 sustains on Tacticals, 2 hits, both saved, 3 BM
[BT] Vampire 3 (with guardians) ground attack. They are CAP’d by Nephilim 1 who score 4 hits. Only 1 is saved, destroying the vampire and giving the DA the hunt for the fallen goal.
[BT] Vampire 2 (aspects) ground attack, and are CAP’d by Nephilim 2. The nephilim score 3 hits, 2 are saved, 2 BM.
The Tacticals are assaulted. Marines score 2 hits on Vampire, both saved. 1 marine+3 rhinos die, and all but 1 tactical and the fearless GM are hacked down. The vampire is broken by the CAP BMs, the aspects consolidate into the ruins, capturing one of their TnH objectives.
[BT] Vampire 3 (autarch) ground attacks, assaulting Ironwing 1. 1 striking scorpion dies but the predators are wiped out so Ravenwing (land speeders) don't get to support.

Vampires disengage, all formations rally except Ravenwing (attack bikes) and tacticals (which is SC and BTS).

Turn 2

Deathwing+chaplain teleport between aspects and blitz, 0 BMs. Avatar appears between guardians and Ravenwing (land speeders). Marines win strategy (both rolled a 6).

[DA] Nephilim 1 ground attack autarch's formation, 2 hits, autarch dies, 2BM
[DA] Terminators retain to engage the other aspects in CC. Aspects get 7 hits but only 1 terminator dies. 2 dire avengers and 3 dark reapers die including both exarchs, and the rest are wiped out in resolution.
[BT] Autarch formation (sans autarch) engages Ravenwing (attack bikes). It doesn't go well for the eldar: 2 bikes, 1 attack bike, 1 striking scorpion and 3 fire dragons die. Marines are on +3, win by 1, an exarch survives and flees towards the corner in the marine half
[BT] Falcons 1 advance on Ravenwing (land speeders), pop up and kill 1 bike and 2 land speeders. The ravenwing break, move towards the isolated T&H objective, then the falcons move up behind a hill
[BT] Falcons 2 doubles on the tacticals. 1 hit = supreme commander dead, the BMs kill the remaining tac = BTS
[DA] Nephilim 2 ground attack Rangers 2, 6 hits = 4 dead rangers, who break & flee onto eldar DtF objective
[DA] Ironwing 2 double onto marine blitz, plink the broken exarch = BTS
[BT] Void Spinner 1 sustain on Ravenwing (attack bikes), 1 hit = 1 kill = 2 BM
[BT] Rangers 1 double onto other eldar DtF objective and fire on Ravenwing (attack bikes)
0 hits = 1 BM (ravenwing are 1 BM away from breaking)
[DA] Ravenwing (attack bikes) engage Rangers 1 in a last-ditch attempt to do something. 1 ranger + 1 bike die. Eldar win by 2, another bike dies, the remaining 2 ABs flee towards the marine blitz
[BT] Vampire 2 ground attacks but fails (4+)
[BT] Vampire 1 ground attacks Ironwing 2, 1 hit = 1 kill, remaining tank breaks but stays put.
[BT] Void Spinner 2 ground attacks Ironwing 2, 0 hits
[BT] Guardians go on overwatch

Rally fails: Ironwing 2, Rangers 1.
Rally passes: Ravenwing (attack bikes), Rangers 2, terminators+chap, Ravenwing (land speeders)

Turn 3

Terminators teleport onto the eldar DtF objective in between Rangers 2 + Falcons 1. They get no BMs. To contest the T&H objective they will need to break both formations... Eldar win strategy.

[BT] Falcons 2 attempt to advance onto the blitz but fail, they move, spreading out to contest blitz and TnH
[DA] Nephilim 1 CAP
[DA] Terminators engage Falcons 1 in the eldar half. Rangers 2 have 1 unit in support range and are 1 BM away from breaking. 1 terminator + 1 falcon die, giving a straight roll off. Marines win by 2, both falcons and rangers break, runing off into marine half.
[BT] Void Spinner 1 sustains on term+chap, 0 hits = 1 BM
[BT] Void Spinner 2 sustains on term+chap, 0 hits = 1 BM
[BT] Vampire 1 ground attacks Ravenwing (attack bikes), and are CAP’d. The nephilim miss all their attacks, and the Ravenwing (land speeders) are wiped out. With the remaining predator broken, Falcons 2 now claim the blitz. Really the vampire should have landed but didn't.
[DA] Terminators+chaplain engage Falcons 2. They get 3 hits, 2 firestorms die. The falcons get all 5 hits, but all are saved. Marines win by 2, falcons buzz off, terminators consolidate so they are just about holding their blitz and DtF objectives. If any terminators had died this wouldn't be possible.
[BT] Ravenwing (land speeders) marshal but fail on a 1, they move onto their isolated DtF objective but are only 2 BM from breaking.
[BT] Vampire 2 ground attacks but fails!
[DA] Nephilim 2 ground attack Rangers 1, the only remaining formation that can contest the DtF goal. 5 hits = 3 dead rangers, who break and move into the marine half.
[BT] The only thing the Guardians can do is double and spread out between DtF objectives, hoping to get lucky enough to break the terminators. They need 2 kills from 3 AT and 2 MW attacks on 6's. They only score 1 hit which is saved.

Both falcon formations and both ranger formations all fail to rally, which gives marines TSNP.

End of game

Marines win 4:1 (hunt for the fallen, BTS, defend the flag, TSNP vs BTS)

Thoughts

Despite the final score this felt like a very close game. The only marines left unbroken at the end were 2 bikes, 1 land speeder and 6 terminators. If a few crucial events had gone differently, such as the terminator assault in the eldar half, Eldar could have won 4:2. Throughout the game the marines had very few units operational on the table but broken formations can always rally and in the end they were just enough to hang on with very "efficient" placing of units. The eldar were forced to overextend and expose themselves, leading to a lot of broken eldar.

The nephilim were good considering that there were no mixed or LV formations on the table. One ground attack was not exactly great but did kill the autarch, another was a CAP that missed entirely with 6 dice. But they broke 2 ground formations which ended up possibly winning the game, as well as shooting a loaded vampire out of the air (granting the hunt for the fallen goal) and nearly taking out another one. All their weapons being 30cm range (and the fact they always get a 90 degree turn being fighters) meant that they did not take any flak shots whatsoever, which meant they activated on a 1+ every turn. A pretty good showing, and not at all bad considering this was the non-interceptor version. Their ability to take down air assaults in one CAP gives DA much better AA cover than codex marines (enough that I didn't miss hunters). A very good and very versatile formation.

The hunt for the fallen goal was a joke, way too easy to get and with no downside. The eldar player had to choose between leaving his guardians and vampire out of the game entirely, or risking running the CAP gauntlet. There were 3 vampires and only 2 interceptor formations, but the eldar had to either risk the guardians or the BTS + SC.

I'm not sure I like the ravenwing formations, even though their large size ended up helping them survive to get the DtF goal, the inflexibility and large up front cost means I don't think I would choose them if I didn't have to in order to get nephilim. It felt like the ravenwing were a hindrance for the DA not a benefit. Teleport homer didn't come into play, but I did have a question about it - do you measure on a unit by unit basis? i.e. if you only have 1 terminator within 15cm of a ravenwing unit, do you only re-roll that unit's teleport dice?

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Just a thought when reading through the discussion here:



They are too cheap in general bike wise, compared to other lists.

White Scar bikes (have walker) are 375 for 8. Your bikes are 350 for 8 with scout and teleport homers. One power of 8 strong bikes over regular codex 5 strong is you can fill a thunderhawk (in codex you'd waste 3 transport slots as there is no upgrade for the formation and you can't fit a second formation into 3 slots). So your bikes are certainly comparable (and possibly stronger: walker vs scout + homers) than white scars list and cost less.

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Had a 3k game with the v3.0 list against NetEA black legion

Not as much detail as Kyrt I'm afraid but I took

3x ravenwing formations, 2 with speeder tornados
3x nephilim formations
Deathwing with two assault termies and chaplain
Thunderhawk
2x plasma preds

Kev101 took (I think)

Retinue with chaos lord and obliterator
Retinue
Termies
Termies with prince and champion and two extra stands
Feral
Decimator
Preds
Raptors
Chosen
Hellblades

Kev chose a tight deployment, I put the termies in the thunderhawk
Turn 1 one plane formation hit kev's scouts, killing four plus a rhino, plane 2 hit the raptors killing four, both formations in cover
Assault termies killed warhound with their obscene number of attacks (SEVEN???) looking at the dice, kev probably would have survived normal termies
Third nephilim formation intercepted the hellblades and shot one down (do you add +1 to hit on intercept/CAP under netEA? We played not....)

Next turn kev teleported two lots of termies in, no blast markers but lost roll off, my termies engaged his smaller formation and killed all but one stand, chaplain died to support fire, plasma preds tried to sustain on the other termies but failed and only killed one stand, termies summoned bloodthirster and engaged the plasma preds wiping them out, 2nd formation of plasma preds sustained on them and picked out the bloodthirster, critting it
Nephilims killed one raptor and 4 marines from second retinue, thawk wipes out broken termies except daemon prince

Turn 3 I was able to speed around and grab both T+H objectives with ravenwing, planes killed DP giving me BTS, other planes scored 5 hits on the preds all of which were saved

Game ended 2-1

Thoughts

As expected the planes were stupidly good, breaking lots of formations and killing loads.... Kev was pretty fed up with them by the end.... as was I..... much much too good

Assault termies, again too strong, especially with the thawk to ferry them around in

Plasma preds were actually weaker than expected although I was a bit cavalier with their use.... they blew up a greater daemon with relative ease though, they really make up for the lack of warhounds in the list

Overall not much fun for Kev, from my point of view and local meta, the list as a whole is too strong and units are far too cheap/potent, Kev is a very good and experienced player but despite the final score the game was never particularly close, I kept him behind the activation curve for pretty much the whole game and he couldnt weather the aircraft shooting which just wore him down

I would definitely take a similar list to a tournament if I was serious about winning, it combines potent shooting, evil air assault, and lots of objective grabbing speed.....

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Further to the batrep above I have a few suggestions:

Assault terminators are just too good, the EA+2 makes them into beasts, this is especially apparent when the thunderhawk is available to deliver them

I would suggest dropping them back to the 'old' style, CC2+ and EA+1 is more balanced, the big kicker here is the thunderhawk, they don't suffer from being forced to teleport and ending up footslogging around if they lose the roll off

Ravenwing are great, but probably 25-50 points too cheap, the extra numbers mean they're harder to break and can speed around nabbing objectives, scout is just the icing on the cake really

Plasma preds.... as they are, there is literally no reason to take either of the other two types, especially the destructor, I get the wanting to remove slow fire, but if so, I suggest reducing all to hit values by one, minervan style, to represent not firing at max power and increasing recharge speed.... also 60cm range on the turret is a bit much, probably better to drop it to 45cm, but if the stats are reduced it's probably okay for now

nephilim.... ooh boy this thing is nasty! they excel at picking off smaller formations and reducing activation count, then later in the game, swarming around units to kill/break them, the demoralising effect on your opponent is also significant

I think dropping them to two planes would be the logical place to start, I think add AA6+ to the avenger cannon, drop the heavy bolter and make the missiles AT5+, I'd also suggest the avenger cannon should be 15cm range so the planes have to get in range of more ground flak, right now you can just hang back and blast seven shades of crap out of stuff

those are my comments based on my game last night and lots of dicsussion with my playing group, Steve54 was watching the game, maybe he and/or Kev101 will have some suggestions

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Both Intercept and CAP get the +1 for the attacker - which is why AA4+ is considered too powerfull for Fighters and Fighter-bombers.

yeah had that confirmed since, we couldn't remember so erred on the side of caution.... thinking about it, it does make sense now!

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My thoughts after last nights game

Plasma preds I see no problem with them if slow firing or hit on a 5+ but at 4+ are much to strong a counting for their speed and rate of fire. I as a dark angles player would prefer slow fire

Ravenwing I like the fact that it can be all bike but scout should be removed.

Deathwing assults should be 2cc + mac and not the two macs as this make them too strong with the added Chaplin and 7 macs dropped out of a t hawk is extreme

As for the fighters they turn the game by themselves only a full loaded eldar aa army knowing what it was fighting would have a chance.
There are just to many shots coming from this formation with very high it potential it kills the game and makes it no fun. with its range They can hang back out of aa.

Having said this the army I used was light on aa with only one oblit and a formation of helltallons

I'll try and add more later but on the phone and got to get back to work

cheers for the comments Kev, I'll take a more balanced list next time we play, I promise!!

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I see it that without Warhounds there's not too much difference and they are much more vulnerable. The only difference is that you can buy many more of these formations than Titans.

Now I've played most of my games with ground Marines (Codex, Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Dark Angels) I think I'm finding that most marine lists without Titans lack any "alpha" ground power (i.e versus other WE etc)and air assault is easily countered/diminished so replacements in no-titan lists is necessary but finding a balance is the key we need to work out.

that and they put out twice as many shots as the titan at 30cm and have a plasma shot every turn at 60cm, there are other factors to consider of course (fearless, voids, RA etc...) but as a 'leg it forward and plasma something in the face' unit, I think they have the potential to outperform even the mighty warhound... and given how good the other units in the list are, that's a problem in my opinion

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